Re: Mixed person plurals

Hello, John, and others; and thanks for writing.

[THIRD AND FOURTH PERSONS]

"Apparently most" linguists -- that is, as-near-as-/I/-can-tell-most
linguists -- divide grammatical persons into "local" (involved in the
conversation) and "non-local" (not involved in the conversation).

Ususally "local persons" means "the speaker and the addressee"; that
is, the interlocutors.

Everyone else is usually "non-local".

But there are at least two ways "involved in the conversation" could
be re-interpreted to give us a concept of "local third persons".

One way would be John Vertical's idea of "hearers other than the
addressee" -- anyone who can clearly hear and understand the
conversation is "local", even if they are not a speaker nor an
addressee; let your conlang have a third local person, and another
(necessarily fourth) person for people further away.

Another way, attested by the natlang Mokilese (according to Greville
Corbett's "Number", and he is referring to Sheldon Harrison's
1976 "Mokilese Reference Grammar"), is to consider the major players,
the topics and foci, the protagonists and deuteragonists as it were,
of the sentences making up the conversation, as "involved in the
conversation" and proper antecedents for the 3rd person; while the
low-prominence adjuncts, bit players, extras, tritagonsts and chorus-
members are proper antecedents for the 4th person.

[MOKILESE "REMOTE" PLURAL]

Mokilese pronouns can be presented on the following table, copied
from Table 2.7 on page 34 of Corbett's "Number":
.................... ............. ........ .......... greater plural
.................... singular .... dual ... plural ... (remote plural)
1st person exclusive ngoah, ngoahi kama ... kamai .... kimi
1st person inclusive ............. kisa ... kisai .... kihs
2nd person ......... koah, koawoa  kamwa .. kamwai ... kimwi
3rd person ......... ih .......... ara, ira arai, irai ihr

Corbett says Harrison has this to say about the "remote" plural forms:
"The remote plural forms are little used. The remote pronouns refer
to groups of people, usually large, and most of which are probably
not directly present when being discussed.  Thus, /kihs/ 'we' refers
to the speaker, the hearer [i.e. addressee -- Tom], and a large group
of people not [all -- Tom] present at the time of the conversation.
Similarly, /kimi/ 'we' refers to the speaker and to a group of others
not present; /kimwi/ 'you', to the hearer and others not present,
and /ihr/ 'they/ to a group of people not present."

"Since /kihs/, for example, commonly refers to very large groups of
people, it is often used to refer to all the people of Mokil, or to
the whole human race. (Harrison 1976: 89-90)"

Corbett says Harrison's "Remote Plural" can be both Corbett's "Plural
of Abundance" and Corbett's "Global Plural"; but I think it could be
your plural-inclusive-of-4th-person, instead; that is, we could re-
analyze these "Remote Plurals" as differing in Person, rather than in
Number.  (If we wanted to, for purposes of deciding what to imitate
in a conlang, for example.)

[DISTINCTIONS YOU MAY NOT NEED TO MAKE]

[2ND FROM LOCAL 3RD IN 2+3 WHEN MORE THAN SINGULAR]
In your proposed system, when you are referring to more than one
person, all of whom are present and can hear, and some of whom you
are addressing, why do you need to distinguish between those you are
addressing and those who can merely hear?
I think this may not be a very commonly useful distinction.
If you have, for instance, four grammatical numbers -- say singular,
dual, paucal, and plural -- and your four grammatical persons -- 1st,
2nd, local 3rd, and non-local 4th -- then, to cover situations in
which no 1st or 4th persons were involved, only 8 combinations of
Number and Person would be necessary;
....... Number  Total	Person  Grammatical
....... of      Number	of      Number
Number  Other   of	Pronoun of
of      Hearers Referents	Pronoun
Addressees              Used    Used
1	0	1	2nd	Singular
0	1	1	3rd	Singular
2	0	2	2nd	Dual
1	1	2	2nd	Dual
0	2	2	3rd	Dual
3	0	3	2nd	Paucal
2	1	3	2nd	Paucal
1	2	3	2nd	Paucal
0	3	3	3rd	Paucal
4	0	4	2nd	Paucal
3	1	4	2nd	Paucal
2	2	4	2nd	Paucal
1	3	4	2nd	Paucal
0	4	4	3rd	Paucal
5	0	5	2nd	Paucal
4	1	5	2nd	Paucal
3	2	5	2nd	Paucal
2	3	5	2nd	Paucal
1	4	5	2nd	Paucal
0	5	5	3rd	Paucal
6	0	6	2nd	Paucal
5	1	6	2nd	Paucal
4	2	6	2nd	Paucal
3	3	6	2nd	Paucal
2	4	6	2nd	Paucal
1	5	6	2nd	Paucal
0	6	6	3rd	Paucal
7	0	7	2nd	Plural
6	1	7	2nd	Plural
5	2	7	2nd	Plural
4	3	7	2nd	Plural
3	4	7	2nd	Plural
2	5	7	2nd	Plural
1	6	7	2nd	Plural
0	7	7	3rd	Plural
7	1	8	2nd	Plural
6	2	8	2nd	Plural
5	3	8	2nd	Plural
4	4	8	2nd	Plural
3	5	8	2nd	Plural
2	6	8	2nd	Plural
1	7	8	2nd	Plural
7	2	9	2nd	Plural
6	3	9	2nd	Plural
5	4	9	2nd	Plural
4	5	9	2nd	Plural
3	6	9	2nd	Plural
2	7	9	2nd	Plural
7	3	10	2nd	Plural
6	4	10	2nd	Plural
5	5	10	2nd	Plural
4	6	10	2nd	Plural
3	7	10	2nd	Plural
7	4	11	2nd	Plural
6	5	11	2nd	Plural
5	6	11	2nd	Plural
4	7	11	2nd	Plural
7	5	12	2nd	Plural
6	6	12	2nd	Plural
5	7	12	2nd	Plural
7	6	13	2nd	Plural
6	7	13	2nd	Plural
7	7	14	2nd	Plural

However, if you insist on the distinction, you need twelve (12);
Number	Number	Total	Grammatical	Grammatical
of	of	Number	Person	Number
Addressees	Other	of	of	of
	Hearers	Referents	Pronoun	Pronoun
			Used	Used
1	0	1	2nd	Singular
0	1	1	3rd	Singular
2	0	2	2nd	Dual
1	1	2	2nd+3rd incl	Dual
0	2	2	3rd	Dual
3	0	3	2nd	Paucal
2	1	3	2nd+3rd incl	Paucal
1	2	3	2nd+3rd incl	Paucal
0	3	3	3rd	Paucal
4	0	4	2nd	Paucal
3	1	4	2nd+3rd incl	Paucal
2	2	4	2nd+3rd incl	Paucal
1	3	4	2nd+3rd incl	Paucal
0	4	4	3rd	Paucal
5	0	5	2nd	Paucal
4	1	5	2nd+3rd incl	Paucal
3	2	5	2nd+3rd incl	Paucal
2	3	5	2nd+3rd incl	Paucal
1	4	5	2nd+3rd incl	Paucal
0	5	5	3rd	Paucal
6	0	6	2nd	Paucal
5	1	6	2nd+3rd incl	Paucal
4	2	6	2nd+3rd incl	Paucal
3	3	6	2nd+3rd incl	Paucal
2	4	6	2nd+3rd incl	Paucal
1	5	6	2nd+3rd incl	Paucal
0	6	6	3rd	Paucal
7	0	7	2nd	Plural
6	1	7	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
5	2	7	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
4	3	7	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
3	4	7	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
2	5	7	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
1	6	7	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
0	7	7	3rd	Plural
7	1	8	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
6	2	8	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
5	3	8	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
4	4	8	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
3	5	8	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
2	6	8	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
1	7	8	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
7	2	9	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
6	3	9	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
5	4	9	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
4	5	9	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
3	6	9	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
2	7	9	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
7	3	10	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
6	4	10	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
5	5	10	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
4	6	10	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
3	7	10	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
7	4	11	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
6	5	11	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
5	6	11	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
4	7	11	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
7	5	12	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
6	6	12	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
5	7	12	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
7	6	13	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
6	7	13	2nd+3rd incl	Plural
7	7	14	2nd+3rd incl	Plural

[1st ]
more later --- my time is up

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