Re: TRANS: a child's exercise

Nik Taylor <fortytwo@...> wrote:

>=20
> >         measmev=E4s =3D meav- 'fish', -es- GEN, mev- 'take, catch',
> >         -as verbal noun, -es GEN (collapsing -as-es > -=E4s).
>=20
> Question: why is it not "meavesmev=E4s"?  Is there a rule that drops th=
e
> {v} from meav- and the {e} of -es in that form?
There's not such rule, but the compound is an old one and
it's worn down. The GEN marker <-es> used to be a postposition,
_ais_, in the old language, but in compounds it wasn't frequent
and it tended to shorten before, losing the vowel; then -vsm-
simplified to -sm-. Or maybe it was just *_meavmevas_ in the
beginning, and then the first -v- dissimilated from the second
one (this happens quite a lot).


> > na rros=FCr  g=F3kononeq       b=FCtth  rremanth.
> > to sea.LOC throw.DUP.3pPST 3p.REL nets.ACC
> > 'who kept throwing nets into the sea.'
>
> Interesting.  So, this "DUP" means "repeated action"?
More or less, yes. It's more like a general progressive aspect.
I usually gloss it as English progressive, but that's too specific.
A person with more style would have used _qing=F3koneq_, no DUP but
a prefix of CNT continual repeated action <qin->, which means
'time after time, again and again'.


> >         This pattern, _i_ + concrete noun + _g=FCften_ 'to do, to mak=
e'
> >         is *extremely* common (and useful!), since the Dr=E1selhadh d=
on't
> >         really like to create verb stems from nouns.
>=20
> Cool.  Same with Colloquial Watakass=ED, which has a lot of verbal phra=
ses
> of the type "make" or "give" plus noun.  In later times, those verbs
> evolved into suffixes.
Like Japanese _suru_?
This use of _g=FCften_ in Drasel=E9q must have been suggested by a parall=
el
with _i_ + noun + _qgednen_ 'to give', which is frequent because that's
the way ditransitive verbs mark their direct objects (leaving the ACC mar=
k
for their indirect objects). I'm too thinking of making them suffixes in
the daughter languages.

> >         Tolkien fans: I *swear* _sauron_ 'shadow maker' wasn't
> >         created on purpose!
>=20
> Hmm, had you read Tolkien before creating that word?  Perhaps it was an
> unconcious derivation?  Presumably, based on your interlinear, based on
> a word for "shadow"?
It might/must be an unconscious borrowing. The root <saur-> gives _saur_
'shadow' or (in old times) 'to project a shadow', _sauron_ uses AGT <-on>
to derive from the verb. A _sauron_ is, in principle, anything that cause=
s
a shadow to be cast, but the agent suffix is generally reserved for anima=
te
and volitional action.

> > tadh na  rr=E9mathes renhadh farth=FC=E1q        i sauron.
> > but  for nets.GEN  men.GRP NEG.exist.3pPST * shadow.AGT
> > 'but there was no shadow-maker for the men of the nets.'
>=20
> What's the GRP mean?  Is it a collective suffix (as in "group"?)
It's a grammatical mark, showing 'group plural'. (I just realized
I didn't give the abbrevs before the text!) The group plural is
used for natural and strongly bound groups, and for collective
reference in general.

> >         _maqas_ means both 'shelter' and 'harbor' in a general sense.
> >         A concrete 'harbor' would be _maq_.
>=20
> What, then, does -as mean?
It adds a concrete root a sense of generality. Compare 'Let's look for
shelter' and 'Let's go to the shelter'.


--Pablo Flores