GROUPLANG : POLL2 (Re: cases, modifiers, pron
| From: | Mathias M. Lassailly <lassailly@...> |
|---|
| Date: | Tuesday, October 20, 1998, 17:43 |
|---|
Christophe wrote :
At 20:54 19/10/98 -0000, you wrote:
> >>From the last poll we could draw the conclusion that the majority of us
> would like :
> >
> >- prefixed cases.
> >
> >- suffixed genders or classifiers.
> >
> >- postpositions and/or supensive predicate.
> >
> >Further discussions apparently show that a majority would like :
> >
> >- 'case+argument + predicate' order.
> >
> >- both noun- and verb-rooted predicates.
> >
> >1. The following cases have been most suggested :
> >
> >1.1. Cases used with verb-rooted predicates :
> >
> >- ergative =3D transitive nominative ERG=3DTNOM : erg-me to-be-red =3D I=
> redden
> (him); erg-me to-rise =3D I raise; erg-me bite =3D I bite.
> >
> >- absolutive =3D undergoer =3D intransitive nominative ABS=3DUND=3DINOM :=
> abs-me
> to-rise =3D I rise; abs-me to-be-red =3D I am/become red.
> >
> >Nota : this is not a genuine absolutive which should be passive as in
> Basque as in :
> >abs-me to-be-cut =3D I'm cut =3D> erg-me abs-it to-be-cut =3D I cut it.
> >
> >- patientive =3D accusative PAT=3DACC : pat-me to-bite =3D I'm bitten.
> >
> >- causative CAUS : caus-me erg-he red =3D I have him redden (something);
> caus-me erg-he fall =3D I have him fell; erg-me food =3D I apply food =3D I=
> feed
> (someone).
> >
> >- dative DAT : dat-me to-give =3D I'm given (a gift).
> >
> >1.2. Cases used with noun-rooted predicates :
> >
> >- agentive AGE : age-me stream =3D I stream; age-me club =3D I beat; age-me
> gift =3D I'm given (as a gift); age-me image =3D I'm seen.
> >
> >- ergative ERG : erg-me red =3D I apply red on him; erg-me fall =3D I apply
> fall on him =3D I make him fall; erg-me hammer =3D I apply hammer =3D I=
> hammer
> (with a tool).
> >
> >- patientive PAT : pat-me red =3D I'm applied red colour; pat-me club =3D=
> I'm
> clubbed; pat-me eye =3D I'm looked at.
> >
> >- absolutive ABS : abs-me eye =3D abs-image =3D I see; abs-seat =3D I sit;=
> abs-me
> fruit : I bear fruit; abs-me rise =3D I rise; abs-me gift =3D I'm given (a=
> gift).
> >
> >- attributive ATT : att-me home =3D I live in (a cave); att-me brother =3D=
> I've
> a brother; att-me ears =3D I've ears; att-me smoke =3D I (release) smoke;=
> etc.
> >
> >- causative CAUS : caus-me erg-he red =3D I have him redden; caus-me erg-he
> fall =3D I have him fell something.
> >
>
> Everything's fine for me. Choose what you prefer.
Could you check them well though ? No complaint after that, OK ?
I choose only :
ERG=TNOM
ABS=INOM
PAT
ATT
because ABS can replace DAT and ATT can replace GEN by means of subclause (see below).
>
> >1.3. Case used with arguments :
> >
> >- genitive GEN : dog gen-me / gen-me dog =3D my dog
> >
>
> I thought we could use ATT in place of GEN.
ATT is used with predicate :
att-me (pred-)brother = I have a brother.
GEN is used with a noun :
gen-me brother = my brother.
I personally make a genitive from ATT through a subclause :
my brother = brother att-me (pred-)who = 'brother whom I have'.
(*who* is the predicate of the subclause).
Example :
ATT = o-;
who = -n;
start of subclause = h-
brother = vamo
dog = fraro
me = si
I have a brother = o-si (di-)vamo.
my brother = vamo h- o-si -n = vam hosi'n.
my brother has a dog = o-vamo h-o-si-n (di-)fraro = ovamo hosi'n (di)fraro.
my brother's dog = fraro h-[ o-vamo -n] h-[ o-si -n] = fraro hovamo'n hosi'n.
>
> >2. Suggested degrees of integration were :
> >
> >- thema + rhema (topic) THEM + RHEM : them-(abs)-dog red =3D the dog, she's
> red; OR dog red =3D the dog, (she's) red.
> >
> >- argument + predicate + ARG + PRED : erg-dog pat/acc-me bite =3D dog bites=
> me.
> >
> >- modifier + noun / modifier + predicate =3D MOD + NOUN/PRED : mod-red dog=
> =3D
> red dog; erg-me mod-hard bite =3D I bite hard.
> >
> >- phrase + determinant / noun + determinant =3D PHR/NOUN + DET : det-pat-me
> bite dog =3D the dog who bites me.
> >
> >- clause + relative + sub-clause =3D CL + REL + SUBCL : dog erg-it pat-me
> bite =3D the dog who bites me / the dog biting me; dog abs-it red =3D red=
> dog;
> erg-dog pat-me abs-which hard bite =3D dog bites me hard.
> >
>
> I prefer the last one.
>
> >3. Suggested pronouns were :
> >
> >3.1. Personal pronouns (spacial deixis - no genders discussed here) :
> >
> >- 1, 2, 3, 3bis
>
> Not bad.
>
> >- 1sg, 1pl, 2sg, 2pl, 3sg, 3pl
>
> Too much common.
>
> >- 1incl, 1excl, 2incl, 2excl, 3
>
> I like it. I'll vote for it.
>
> >- polite-less-polite-even-less-polite
>
> I prefer only two degrees of politeness: polite familiar (I don't
> like too much politeness, my own experience makes me think of hypocrisy. Do
> you want a hypocritical language?).
>
> >etc.
> >
> >3.2. Relative/resumptive pronouns (syntactic deixis) :
> >
> >latter/former/next one : dog erg-last_one pat-me bite =3D dog who bites me
> >latter/this/next fact : erg-dog abs-this_fact hard pat-me bite =3D dog=
> bites
> me hard; erg-dog pat-me bite att-latter_fact hard =3D dog bites me hard.
> >
>
> What is the difference?
No difference in meaning but the second sentence features a suspensive form.
ERG = u-
PAT = e-
ATT = o-
this_fact = -t
latter_fact = -k
dog = fraro
me = si
beginning of subclause = h-
hard = kor
the dog bites me hard =
1. u-fraro e-si h-[ o-t kor] kjak = ufraro esi hot kor kjak.
2. u-fraro e-si kjak o-k kor = ufraro esi kjak ot kor.
>
> >Please make your choice and comments on items 1.1 through 3.2.
> >
> >Suggested next step : postpositions/adverbal subclause; word-order in
> subclause; genders/classifiers; derived nouns, state/action nouns ('the one
> bitten', 'the maker', 'the fact of eating'); aspects, moods ('want to',
> 'can', 'must', etc.) tenses, negative; for verb-rooted predicates : passive,
> (antipassive ?).
> >
> >Mathias
> >
> >-----
> >Free e-mail group hosting at
http://www.eGroups.com/
> >
> >
> Christophe Grandsire
> |Sela Jemufan Atlinan C.G.
>
> "R=E9sister ou servir"
>
> homepage:
http://www.bde.espci.fr/homepage/Christophe.Grandsire/index.html
>
>