Re: Comitative

John Quijada wrote:

># 1 <salut_vous_autre@...> wrote:
>
> >In my conlang Vbazi, I've devised the comitative case
> >
> >There are the suffixes -yib/-dyib (depending if the root ends with a
>vowel
> >and a consonnant) that can be added after any noun or pronoun
> >
> >To mean something like "X is with Y", they are verbalizers, it will be
>"X1
> >Y-yib-X2" with X1 being the X noun and X2 being the conjugaison at the
>X's
> >person/number (X1 can be dropped if it's a pronoun)
> >
> >so with:
> >i = 1st singular
> >e = 2nd-singular
> >
> >you have:
> >edyibi = I'm with you
> >idyibe = you're with me
> >
> >
> >To mean something like "X does Z with Y"  Z (Z is a verb) will normally
>be
> >conjugated for X and Y will take the -yib/dyib suffix AND the adverb
>suffix
> >"-wy"
> >
> >so it would be like "X does Z in-the-way-of-being-with-Y" or "with-Y-ly"
> >
> >with:
> >kh = 3rd singular
> >sleep = -dzyiv-
> >
> >you have:
> >I sleep = dzyivi
> >
> >I sleep with you = dzyivi edyibwy /dz)Eivi edEibwE/
> >You sleep with him = dzyive khyibwy /dz)Eive k_hEibwE/
> >
> >
> >In addition of this, -dyib- can act as a full verbal root meaning "be
> >together" but that logicaly can't be used with a singular subject
> >
> >so with:
> >im = inclusive 1st dual
> >de = familiar 2nd paucal
> >kv = human 3rd plural
> >
> >we (two) are together = dyibim
> >you (few) are together = dyibde
> >they (many) are together = dyibkv /dEibkv=/
> >
> >
> >When used with the active marker "de", that verb will have the meaning of
> >"getting together"
> >
> >we (two) get together = de dyibim
> >you (few) get together = de dyibde
> >they (many) get together = de dyibkv
> >
> >
> >Other uses might be possible such as "staying with" that is easy to make
> >because, if "be with" is a verb I can make something like "I keep
> >being-with"
> >
> >
> >Is there another use of accompaniment I've forgot?
>--------------------------------
>You might consider distinguishing a "utilitative" usage from the
>comitative and the instrumental, to differentiate sentences such as "The
>man pushed the stroller with the umbrella" versus "The man with the
>umbrella pushed the stroller",
Yeah I'll think of that but this is another thing and no more comitative,
that's why I didn't include that

But I didn't think of distinguishing utilisative from instrumental, in fact
I've never heard about utilisative before

>i.e., he used the umbrella to push the
>stroller, versus he had an umbrella while pushing the stroller.  I also
>use this utilitative case in Ithkuil to translate English descriptive
>gerundive phrases as in "A gun-wielding man entered the room" = "A man
>with a gun entered the room."  Notice in this sentence the "with"
>construction does not imply instrumentality (i.e., the gun wasn't the
>means by which he was able to enter),
OK is that the difference? Instrumentality is when the object is used to
perform the action and "utilisative" is when the object is simply used
indepedantly of the action?

>nor is it simply comitative (i.e.,
>accompaniment), but rather simultaneous utilization (i.e., while entering
>the room, he was also wielding the gun).  Finally, the utilitative would
>be distinguished from the comitative to differentiate the two ambiguous
>meanings of "I see a girl with a book" where using comitative to
>translate "with a book" simply means she has a book in her possession,
>while with the utilitative it would mean she is reading it.
Without saying she's exactly reading it but only using it

She could as well be reading it as it could be that she's using the book for
killing an insect or starting a fire

So, "utilisative" implies an action without any further precision, that's
not linked with the action performed in the sentence

I'll try to find a way to say that distinction by affixes or adpositions,
thanks

- Max