Re: Hebrew, etc. [was: Multi-lingos

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On 22 Aug, callanish wrote:

>Shalom, Dan! Ma nishma?
B'seder, toda.

>Thanks for the Yiddish reference. I'll keep and eye out for that book.
Glad to be able to help.


>You mentioned something that really interested me, about some speakers of
>Hebrew preserving older pronunciation distinctions (like het vs. chaf).
that
>are lost in general Israeli speech. I'd really like to hear more about
that,
>if you can tell me. Is it any particular group(s) of people that keep this
>distinction? Are there any other older pronunciations that are also kept
>(e.g. what about tet vs. tav, or vav pronounced /w/)? Do you know the
reasons
>why these distinctions were preserved among certain people but not others?
    Well,  IME, the Israelis who were born/raised in the countries where
Arabic is spoken, tend to preserve elements in Hebrew that are also
found  in Arabic, such as the pronounciation of pharyngeal sounds
(het = unvoiced pharyngeal fricative, 'ayin = voiced pharyngeal fricative).
Most Israelis do not use pharyngeals in their speech.
Thus, fricatives in the back of the mouth
are not generally distinguished, leading both "het" and "chaf"
to be pronounced the same. But Israelis from Arabic speaking
countries, having pharyngeals in their
speech, tend to maintain the distinction.
   Among some people from certain parts of
North Africa, the "tsade" which is usually pronounced [ts], is pronounced
like an emphasized unvoiced [s], which, I gather, is closer to
the proto-Semitic value of the letter (someone please correct me
if I am wrong), as opposed to the "samech" and "sin"
which are both, AFAIK, pronounced [s], unemphasized. I haven't run across
any speakers who differentiate between "samech" and "sin".
    "vav" as /w/ can be found in the speech of Israelis of Yemmenite
origin.
     Common spoken Israeli Hebrew does not make a distinction between
"tet" and "tav" (they are both spoken as [t] ). Ashkenazic Hebrew, though,
preserves the distinction: "tet" being [t], and "tav" (without a "dagesh"),
being [s].
This dialect is spoken (in Israel, at least) mostly by people from a
Yiddish speaking background
and/or exposure to a Yiddish language Yeshiva. It was spoken originally
in Europe.
    Dialect linguistics is fascinating and there is lots to describe, just
like
in the dialectology of any lang, but unfortunately, I'm not an expert
on it. One more thing I can add though: the letter "heh" (= [h]).
Most Israelis usually drop it in spoken Hebrew. However, Americans
who are used to pronouncing the "h" in English" tend to pronounce it in
Hebrew also. I have had to train myself to drop the "heh"s when talking
just like everybody else. :-)

>Sorry to bug you with so many questions,
No problem!

> but I have a big interest in Hebrew
>and Israeli culture (due to my first girlfriend, so many years ago, who was
>from Beer Sheva) and I hadn't heard about this before. Unfortunately, I've
>forgotten virtually all the Hebrew I had learned once -- a regret of mine.
>It's a great language, one I would love to learn again one day when I have
>the time to devote to it!
Here's hoping that we all get the time to learn the langs on our individual
wish-lists! :-)
>
>Toda,

Al Lo Davar (=It's nothing!)

Dan Sulani

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likehsna rtem zuv tikuhnuh auag inuvuz vaka'a.

A word is an awesome thing.