Re: Subcreation and image [was: RE: Betreft: Re: Steg's wonderful .sig (and a question)]

On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, FFlores wrote:

> Coming back to subcreation, it's interesting to see that in
> Christian orthodoxy, as Lucifer is himself a creation of God,
> he can't create himself -- but why can't he *sub*create?
I'll let Christ speak, because I can't do it better myself ;-)

   John 15:4-5  Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear
   fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye,
   except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that
   abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit:
   for without me ye can do nothing.

Or in the New International Version, which I personally dislike (the
whole translation, not these verses specifically) but perhaps a
little more readable:

   Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit
   by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit
   unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a
   man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart
   from me you can do nothing.

See also my reply to Andrew about Lucifer's mistake, and I think
Boudewijn wrote something to that effect as well.

> Especially dualist
> conceptions, where it's conceivable that two equal and opposing
> powers could really create. While God and Goodness are supposed
> to win in the end, maybe because all creatures are originally good
> and made by God, in a dualist conception there won't be such a
> limit, and there would be no way to justify the final defeat of
> Evil -- unless a third and superior power came into play. Am I
> just babbling?
As far as I'm aware, Gnostic Christianity says exactly that (but I'm
only in the first year of my theology course, and Gnosticism is
second-year stuff).

   Irina

            Varsinen an laynynay, saraz no arlet rastynay.
                     irina@rempt.xs4all.nl (myself)
       http://www.xs4all.nl/~bsarempt/irina/index.html (English)
    http://www.xs4all.nl/~bsarempt/irina/backpage.html (Nederlands)