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Re: Subcreation and image [was: RE: Betreft: Re: Steg's wonderful .sig (and a question)]

From:Irina Rempt-Drijfhout <ira@...>
Date:Wednesday, November 10, 1999, 8:46
On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, FFlores wrote:

> Coming back to subcreation, it's interesting to see that in > Christian orthodoxy, as Lucifer is himself a creation of God, > he can't create himself -- but why can't he *sub*create?
I'll let Christ speak, because I can't do it better myself ;-) John 15:4-5 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. Or in the New International Version, which I personally dislike (the whole translation, not these verses specifically) but perhaps a little more readable: Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. See also my reply to Andrew about Lucifer's mistake, and I think Boudewijn wrote something to that effect as well.
> Especially dualist > conceptions, where it's conceivable that two equal and opposing > powers could really create. While God and Goodness are supposed > to win in the end, maybe because all creatures are originally good > and made by God, in a dualist conception there won't be such a > limit, and there would be no way to justify the final defeat of > Evil -- unless a third and superior power came into play. Am I > just babbling?
As far as I'm aware, Gnostic Christianity says exactly that (but I'm only in the first year of my theology course, and Gnosticism is second-year stuff). Irina Varsinen an laynynay, saraz no arlet rastynay. irina@rempt.xs4all.nl (myself) http://www.xs4all.nl/~bsarempt/irina/index.html (English) http://www.xs4all.nl/~bsarempt/irina/backpage.html (Nederlands)