Re: Elves and Ill Bethisad

--- Jörg Rhiemeier skrzypszy:

>> The Elves are no more a problem than the Kashubians.  And it
>> neatly explains what IB-JRRT was up to.
>
> Well, it is indeed not so big a problem, but I found that
> I couldn't do what I wanted to given the state of Ill Bethisad.
> My ideas about the Elves just didn't fit the overall style
> of the world.
Difficult for me and others to judge as long as we don't know what exactly
your plans were with the Elves. My experience in IB is that people are
flexible and always prepared to make some space for somebody else's project.

>> > (3) in my opinion, Ill Bethisad has moved into a direction
>> >     I don't prefer.
>>
>> IMO, IB has moved in so many directions simultaneously that there is
>> no longer much point in speaking of it "moving into a direction".
>> I regret that some people have bailed out, and it's plain that some
>> cultures (like the Fortunatians) couldn't possibly fit there: the
>> whole of history is inconsistent.
>
> This is part of the problem.
I think John meant to say: it would become inconsistent if an elaborate
conculture like the Fortunatians would join as a whole.

> The history is *grossly* inconsistent, there are too many things that
> clash with each other to mention.
Pardon? Could you specify this a bit?
It is undeniably true that sometimes minor inconsistencies appear; that is
inherent to the way we are working. Like the year in which Great War II was
concluded. But in general, we all do our very best to wipe out these
inconsistencies, and to avoid them in the future. My impression is that it
works pretty well.

> It also struck me that the timeline shows a massive shortage of
> progressive politics.  There are still quasi-feudal social structures
> in Dunein; human sacrifices on the Arvorec islands; environmantalism
> exists mainly in the totalitarian, back-to-the-stone-age form
> of ecotopism, etc.
This is an interesting point. Well, I don't believe their is a massive
shortage in progressive politics at all. IB is definitely a colourful and
slightly archaistic place, but that certainly does not mean that we are
stuck in the 19th century or in the 1950s.

The fact that there are more kings, dukes and emperors doesn't make it
feudal or less progressive by any standard, just different. Nor does that
fact that IB has airships instead of airplanes. And the fact that most
Balts are pagan certainly does not mean that they are savages!

Some countries are more conservative than *here* (Dunein, RTC, Germany),
other countries are more progressive (Ireland, Dalmatia, Scandinavia). The
RTC undeniably sort of neo-feudal, but what else would you have expected
from a country so firmly rooted in the Middle Ages? However, this is no
Medieval feudalism, but a modernised kind of feudalism as it could have
survived into the 21th century.

For the rest, IB has as many socialists, communists, anarchists and
environmentalists as our world. Search the Conculture archives for "Canton"
and you will see that IB even has an anarchist state! Yes, in a way IB is
even more progressive than our world. Not every political decision is
motivated by money only. Decolonisation took place along different lines,
more based on equal partnership than on keeping the poor countries poor.
IMO that is progressive.

But of course, IB is no utopia. It has its ugly spots too, although in
general they are at least less ugly than *here*.

> Thank you!  But that doesn't mean that I am obliged to re-enter
> Ill Bethisad.
Well, that's your own choice. Nobody is forcing you to come back to IB; all
we are saying is that you would be most welcome.

> I actually considered re-joining Ill Bethisad several times, not with
> the Elves, but with Germanech, but that too would clash with several
> other factors.
With what? We can always work out something! As you know, I'm a great fan
of Germanech, and I would love to see its return (it was in IB for a while,
right?). Where, in your imagination, is it spoken?
Note that IB has three other Germano-Romance languages at the moment:
Jelbäzech (Dan Jones), Jovian (Christian Thalmann), and Lessinu (Joe Hill).

> I am not sure about adding more flavors only helping it.
> To me, Ill Bethisad is a chaotic mess with way too many different
> "flavors" already.  Each author seems to have its own idea of
> what the world of Ill Bethisad looks like, resulting in a patchy,
> inconsistent world where no-one really knows what is going on.
Here I disagree with you. Ill Bethisad is definitely a very colourful
world, but I would never classify it as "messy" or "inconsistent". Of
course, many blank pages are still to be written.
And it is not true that no one knows what is going on. At least the more
active participants know perfectly well what is going on, myself included.

(about Padraic:)
> Well, that is quite much.  You keep the web site, and
> in a way, you are thus in control what is "canonical"
> in IB.
Not at all. Padraic merely collects the interesting/important stuff and
puts it on his website "for further reference". What is "canonical" depends
mostly on the person in charge of a country or region. Sometimes Padraic
and/or John interfere when someone writes something that violates
established facts; but that is a matter of experience, not of being in
control or whatever.

> (BTW: Mindon Gwar is still on your map of Kemr.
> That was an Elvish city, and thus it doesn't exist
> in Ill Bethisad.)
I don't know this specific case. But in general I would argue that
something that has been written should remain canonical even if its
original author has left. Otherwise all the stories build around it would
lose their value too.

> It seems to please you that Dragon & Star hasn't made
> substantial progress yet, and your comments seem to
> imply that you take the mere existence of D&S
> as an offence.  I apologize to you if I mis-interpret
> you.
Yes, I think you completely misinterpreted Padraic. The way I understood
him, he said it was a pity that so little work had been done on D&S.

Jan