Re: French (was Re: Re: Optimum number of symbols)

Kendra wrote:
> I remember reading somewhere that in Japanese there are a lot of ways to
> express first person depending on to whom one  is speaking, though I cna't
> remember where I read that.
Yep.  And second-person and third-person, too.  Here's a few of the
pronouns (as I understand them):

First person
Watakushi: Highly formal, humble
Watashi: Neutral
Washi: Somewhat old-fashioned
Boku: Informal, predominately male
Ore: Highly informal, male; somewhat "macho"
Atakushi: Very formal, feminine
Atashi: Feminine
Chin: Only used by the Emperor
These can all suffix -tachi to make plural
In addition there's the plural _Wareware_ which comes from a
reduplication of a now-obsolete singular pronoun _ware_ (altho, I've
heard it used in animes when a god or some other supernatural being is
speaking - presumably a similar connotation as using "thou" in English)
I've seen _warera_ (using a rare plural -ra on that same ware) in a
translation of the Lord's Prayer, and in a Japanese Bible.

Second person
Anata: Neutral
Anta: Intimate, or rude
Kimi: Used to adress children or one's bf/gf/spouse; tends to be
  considered condescending in other contexts.
   I have a song that has a line that translates as something like
   "For me, you're the only 'kimi' in the world", which sounds weird
   if you translate it literally "You're the only you for me!" :-)
Kisama: Very rude, insulting
Omae: Neutral, I think, possibly somewhat informal
Omee: Rude
Temee: Rude
These can suffix -tachi to make plural, or -gata to be more polite;
-gata is a polite plural (of course, one wouldn't add -gata to an
insulting pronoun, I think _anata_ is the only one of the bunch that
commonly takes -gata)

Third person
Kare: He (also "boyfriend") - not very common anymore, used mostly in
translations
  This pluralizes as "karera"; for some reason, *karetachi is
ungrammatical
Kanojo: She (also "girlfriend") - not very common anymore, used mostly
in translations
  Historically, _kare_ was epicene, it meant literally "that one", but
  then translators created _kanojo_ (lit. "that woman") to translate
  "she" in Western languages, and eventually, _kanojo_ splipped into the
  spoken language, and _kare_ came to be restricted to masculine!
Ano hito: He/she; lit. "That person"
Ano kata: He/she; lit. "That direction"
As with second person pronouns, -tachi or -gata pluralizes these, except
for _kare_.

For inanimates, one normally either says nothing or repeats the noun,
like _Sensei ni hon wo sashiageta_ "I gave it/the book to Sensei", or
uses _sore_ "that one".

And pronouns can vary by dialect.  Sometimes rather interestingly, I've
heard a use of _uchi_ as a first person singular pronoun, whereas in the
standard dialect, that means something like "Family", often translated
as "we" in English, it's used in forms like _uchi no ie_ "our house"
[i.e., "my family's house"], _uchi no inu_ "our dog", etc.  I don't know
if it's coincidence, or that dialect made a plural into a singular.

First person can't use -gata because it's culturally incorrect to honor
oneself.

However, pronouns are often avoided.  When addressing or referring to a
superior, for example, it's more common to use their name and/or title.
You wouldn't ask your teacher, for example, "Kore wa anata no hon desu
ka?" (This topic you gen. book is question) for "Is this your book?" but
"Kore wa *sensei* no hon desu ka?" (This topic teacher gen. book is
question), which is also how you'd ask someone "Is this his [referring
to sensei] book?"  Likewise, the teacher would usually use _sensei_ in
place of first person pronouns.

> Your [Nik Taylor's] system sounds interesting, and
> probably not very difficult to remember.
Well, gender 6 and 7, as well as 4 and 5, can sometimes be
unpredictable.  Also, there's the complication that body parts are
sometimes gender 6, and sometimes the gender of the being that possess
them!  Thus, since I am male, I would use a different form for "my head"
(namely, gender 2) than you would (gender 1).  :-)  But, we'd use the
same form for "my arm"

Here's a few examples of the unpredictability in 6 and 7:

Pivlandi (gender 7) War
Uastakka (gender 6) Battle
Uauta (gender 6) Arrow
Plaki (gender 7) Bow
Uanipa (gender 6) Water
Plilusil (gender 7) Cloud
Pisigama (gender 7) Copper
Uatiskadi (gender 6) Gold
Uatladaila (gender 6) Evil
Pibitassa (gender 7) Goodness
Uanalau (gender 6) Food
Pidinzakka (gender 7) Fast
Pigaaziala (gender 7) Feast

> But why the heck are ships femenine in English?
Good question.  :-)  My Spanish II teacher used to joke that computers
were feminine in Spanish because no one can really understand them.  :-)

--
"There's no such thing as 'cool'.  Everyone's just a big dork or nerd,
you just have to find people who are dorky the same way you are." -
overheard
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AIM Screen-Name: NikTaylor42

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