Re: French (was Re: Re: Optimum number of symbols)

En réponse à Kendra <kendra@...>:

> I think everyone would have a lot easier time learning languages if
> their
> first language were taught to them with more sense.
I think you just pointed out at the main problem of the American system of
education for languages. Even English is taught so sloppily, how can you expect
anything with other languages?

 I think the way
> English
> teachers teach English  is really lazy, which is why half the time
> nobody
> knows the difference between 'who' and 'whom', even though you could
> explain
> it really easily...and so forth. Nobody's ever explicitly explained
> that
> past participles, or forms of verbs, behave like adjectives, which is
> why I
> call them verbs, even though I know they're adjectives. Even in my AP
> English class we only discussed gerunds and subject/direct
> object/indirect
> object for about a week before everyone complained that we were doing
> too
> much grammar.
They would have been unhappy in France. Our teaching of French was strongly
grammar oriented.

> Damn it, I love grammar!
> So I doubt many people in my class would be able to grasp the concept
> of
> past participle as adjective in any way, without some major
> explanation.
>
Well, sometimes you have to make a little violence to students and make them
study things they don't like, when there's still a chance that it will be
useful for them, even in short term.

>
> Whoa, really? Our teacher's taught it as 'you do't have to do anything
> to
> the past participle with 'avoir.''
Normally yes, unless the object is in front of the verb.

> Can you give me an example? I'm following what you're saying, but
> having
> trouble visualizing it. :)
> Oh wait, here's an example. Yay, writing e-mail with lots of responses
> is
> useful!
>
:))

> Julien Eychenne wrote:
> >  2.a.  Marie, sa réponse, elle me l'a pas encore donnée. ('Mary, her
> > answer,                   she has not yet given it to me ').
> >  2.b. *Marie, sa réponse, m'a pas encore donnée. ('Mary, her answer,
> has
> > not yet given to me').
> > But (3) is correct (at least for me):
> >  3. Sa réponse, Marie, elle me l'a pas donnée. ('Her answer, Mary,
> she
> > has not yet given it to me').
>
> In our class, my teacher has taught is to write it (pardon me for
> simplifying the sentence ;)
> 'Marie ne l'a pas donné,' or 'Marie ne les a pas donné,' and not to
> worry
> about gender agreement.
What?!!! Please tell your teacher as soon as possible that he taught you
something completely wrong, while this kind of agreement is considered basic in
French! And tell him that it's a French man who says that, and that I know what
I'm talking about! I just hope those poor students will never have to write a
letter in French to get a job or something. This kind of mistake is enough to
throw you away!

> So the etre business was completely out of nowhere to us and it never
> would
> have occured to us to put an -s on the end of things.
>
Of course not! You're taught completely wrong!

>
> Exactly-- but teachers of ANY language at my school basically teach it
> as,
> 'this is just the way it is.'
> I'd probably have a lot more trouble with it if I couldn't figure it out
> by
> myself.
> And our book is almost exclusively excersizes.
>
Oh dear... I knew French was not well considered as a subject in American
schools, but this is ridiculous!

>
> Huzzah for Spanish! The more I hear about Spanish, the happier I am to
> be
> taking it next year, after the pronunciation nightmare of french (no
> offense
> meant to our French speakers... but I am sure my poor teacher is getting
> a
> lot more flak than he deserves :))
>
Well, let me warn you before. I had 8 years of Spanish classes, and I still
have the biggest difficulties with the verbs "ser" and "estar" (Spanish has two
verbs "to be" :)) ). Also, Spanish irregular verbs are more numerous than in
French and even more irregular. If you're taught Spanish the same way you're
taught French now, I expect the worst...

> in
> French, in that I always use the male version of things when writing
> in
> first person (except for class, because our teacher marks it off,
> grr.)
> I don't think a lot of people have THAT stance, though there are
> extensive
> discussions about creating third-person gender neutral pronouns for
> english,
> like xe/xir, hey/hem/heir, and so forth.
>
The problem with those things is that it never works. You can control on a
certain extent vocabulary and spelling, but grammar is outside the reach of any
power, and those things like gender distinctions or pronouns are too
grammatical to be changed by law...

>
> This is true. I was being facetious. I apologize for my coimplete lack
> of
> sense.
>
OK, I understand now :)) .

> TBH, I don't have a problem with the spelling, so much as the fact that
> I
> can't puzzle out pronunciation, because my teacher has really
> unexpected
> pronunciation, so even with the knowledge I have I'm usually wrong.
>
Well, I must say I don't like much this teacher. I'm the kind of person who
considers that if you want to do something, do it good or don't do it at all
(which makes me very angry towards other French people sometimes. It's not for
nothing that the Dutch have the expression "de Franse slag": "the French way"
to refer to things that are not done correctly or only half-done :))) ).

>
> Yes, thank you! No, he never even mentioned it, though  I hear he marks
> it
> wrong if you don't write the oe connected. /shrug
Well, I just can't write o and e together without connecting them. It's jsut
part of my cursive writing :)) . But I don't have trouble when I see it written
disconnected. Actually, I don't even think it's considered a mistake in French.

>
> And actually, my teacher is Spanish, speaks Spanish, Greek, Latin,
> French
> and I think something else...
> So I am probably learning French with a Spanish accent, which may
> explain my
> frustration with the spelling, because I can find neither rhymre nor
> reason
> to his pronunciation.
Probably this teacher is not fluent in French at all. Did they have trouble
finding French teachers that they had to take incompetents (sorry for the word,
but this teacher may be very good at other languages, but the image you give of
him tell me that he should stop teaching French) to fill posts?

> But it IS first year, and he's probably just given up. Most of the
> people
> who don't make an effort are probably just taking it for credits (bc I
> think
> there's ar equirement for the freshman this year that you need to take
> two,
> recc. three years of a language? Most people take Spanish for that [I
> live
> in california] but a lot of the mexican kids are fluent in Spanish so
> they
> can't take it.)
Lazy people without any curiosity... Sometimes I feel so depressed...

> I don't know. It certainly is frustrating though. I don't have anyone
> to
> practice with either. When I try my friends make fun of my
> pronunciation, :(
> My friend Jeff (I can't get him to join this list because he never
> comes
> online :p) has much better pronunciation than I do, because he is the TA
> for
> another french teacher, one who probably has a more regular French
> accent.
>
<sigh> You're the perfect example of how the American system of education
manages to break the will of people who were happy to learn something
different, like a language. This is so depressing...

Christophe.

http://rainbow.conlang.free.fr

Take your life as a movie: do not let anybody else play the leading role.

Replies