Re: Vocalic patterns & BrSc
| From: | Raymond Brown <ray.brown@...> |
|---|
| Date: | Thursday, May 9, 2002, 4:48 |
|---|
At 1:30 pm +0400 8/5/02, Pavel Iosad wrote:
>Hello,
[snip]
>> /i/ ---- /u/
>> | |
>> | |
>> /e/ ---- /o/
>> \ /
>> \ /
>> /a/
>>
>> It's found not only in Spanish, Modern Greek, Russian and
>> Czech,
>
>In the latter two, with the addition of the high central vowel
>
>/i/-----/y/-----/u/
> \ /
> /e/ /o/
> \ /
> /a/
OOPS - you're right about Russian (which is hardly surprising :)
Hey, that could be thought of as:
/i/----/1/-----/u/ (using X-SAMPA /1/ for Russian bI)
/e/----/a/-----/o/
- another 3x2 system :)
But Czech no longer has [1], both {i} and {y} are now pronounced [i], the
only difference being, as far I can make out, that {i} causes preceeding
/t/, /d/ or /n/ to be palatalized and {y} does not.
>But for Russian at least, that would be the phonological system only -
>there are also the reduction variants.
There are, indeed, I would not want such variants in BrSc.
>> Dirk's syllabary (which I've always found attractive) means only one
>> contrast of tongue height: high ~ low. In Dirk's original
>> scheme there was
>> a three dimensional contrast at both hights, thus:
>> /i/ --- /1/ --- /u/
>> | | |
>> | | |
>> /e/ --- /a/ --- /o/
>>
>> Now I find, in fact, that 3x2 distributions like this seem
>> pretty uncommon.
>
>Another one is found in Bulgarian. The phonemic distinctive features are
>front ~ back and open~close
>
>/i/-----/@/-----/u/
>/e/----/a/------/o/
Now that I did not know - thanks for the info.
>> All comments or observations, whether pro or con, are invited ;)
>
>Once again, this depends on whether you want to it be neat or to be
>naturalistic.
Both - I'm an incorrigible optimist :)
>I, personally, have nothing against high central vowels,
>but then, my native lang is Russian :-)
I've nothing against them either as such.
-------------------------------------------------------------
At 8:47 am -0500 8/5/02, Peter Clark wrote:
>On Wednesday 08 May 2002 00:21, Raymond Brown wrote:
>> It seems to me that if I do adopt a Dirk-like 'Roman syllabary' in any
>> reformed BrSc, I must chose between a 3x2 or a 2x2 distribution.
[snip]
> You neglected another option: 2x3. You coul go with the Old
>English pattern:
> /i/ ---- /u/
> | |
> /e/ ---- /o/
> | |
> /æ/ ---- /a/ Disadvantages:
[snip]
Actually its main disadvantage for me is that it doesn't fit the "Dirk-like
syllabary" which presupposes a two-level (high ~ low) scheme.
I have in mind for somewhen after I've got BrSc out of my system, so to
speak, devising an artlang with a 3x3 system thus:
/i/ ---- /1/ ---- /u/
| | |
/e/ ---- /@/ ---- /o/
| | |
/E/ ---- /a/ ---- /O/
with vowel harmony :)
But that's for the future (maybe).
{groan} yes, not a good start - but I'll have a look; it might give some
ideas, at least.
----------------------------------------------------------------
At 11:26 am -0400 8/5/02, Roger Mills wrote:
>Pavel Iosad wrote:
>(replying to Ray Brown)
[snip]
>>
>>Another one is found in Bulgarian. The phonemic distinctive features are
>>front ~ back and open~close
>>
>>/i/-----/@/-----/u/
>>/e/----/a/------/o/
>>
>It's also the system of Malay/Indonesian and some of its relatives. In
>Malay, the "high" central vowel is usually [@] and is never stressed.
The "never stressed" bit probably doesn't make this a proper 3x2 system.
>In
>Bugis, where it can be stressed, it varies between [1] and [@].
That's interesting, since I had earlier suggested exactly the same for BrSc :)
Thanks - this has been very helpful. I can now add Russian, Bulgarian and
Bugis to Sranan as examples of the 3 (front, central, back) x 2 (high, low)
system. It appears more common than I suspected. Are there other examples?
Ray.
=======================================================
The median nature of language is an epistemological
commonplace. So is the fact that every general
statement worth making about language invites a
counter-statement or antithesis.
GEORGE STEINER.
=======================================================
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