Re: YADPT (D=Dutch)

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003, Jan van Steenbergen wrote:

> Hehe, I guess I can't help you in Zeelandish dialect matters... I'm afraid
> my knowledge remains limited to Standard Dutch (ABN) and some Westfries and
> Amstredams only.
We can't have everything, can we? It was interesting nonetheless.

> >What is the Dutch word for Cassowary? (Oma doesn't know and Harrie and
> >Mien don't speak English.)
>
> No idea! The thing is, I have not a clue what a cassowary is... I just
> checked in my electronic dictionary here at work, and the word isn't
> there... :(
My favorite kind of bird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassowary (my other
email address and yahoo! ID is kesuari, the Malay source of the word).
(Though the bird is Australian, I tend to think of it as Papua New
Guinean. Probably to do with the context I first heard of it in.)

> >There is a word for young girl pronounced sort of like [meiS@]. It might
> >be a dialect word, I'm not sure. How is it spelt?
>
> "meisje". And it is not a dialect word; it is the normal word for "girl".
Okay. Mum was asking about two words, one of which was a dialect word and
the other was standard. I forgot which way was which (and what the dialect
word was for that matter).

On this subject, I just remembered one qn I forgot: I noticed that Mien
seemed sometimes to randomly pronounce <s> and <z> as [S] and [Z] (e.g.
in the word for 'visiting', which I think was 'bezoek op' but I'm
probably wrong). Is this some feature of the orthography I don't know or a
dialect thing or my ears deceiving me?

> Normally, I would say [Ej]. However, this is one of those diphthongs that
> strongly tend to differ regionally [E:, e, Aj, Oj, etc.]. I'm not sure
> about the pronunciation in Zeeland.
[Oj]? That's a bit extreme isn't it? But fair enough :)

> Neither of those. The standard Dutch word for "Dutch" is "Nederlands".
> There is nothing like a "Hollands" language or dialect, although sometimes
> speakers of peripherical dialects like Limburgs or Gronings call
> Dutch "Hollands" to stress their own separateness.
Well, they definitely called Dutch _Hollands_.

> >Are <ie> and <i> pronounced the same (i.e. as [I])?
>
> No. <ie> is always [i], and [i] is always [I].
Really? Because I really _cannot_ hear the difference. If that's not a
dialectal peculiarity or an oddity of my own, maybe the French should
learn to speak Australian English or something :)

> <ee> is always pronounced [e] or [e:]. Only before <r> is sounds more like
> [I:]. So, "Zeeland" sounds like [ze:lAnt].
Hmm... well, maybe the occasions I heard it other than in Zeeland when I
knew I heard it it was followed by ar <r>. This was only while watching
some powerpoint slides with captions they'd made up. (Incidentally, is it
common for older people to use computers in the Netherlands? It sounds
like Oma is the only one of her still living siblings who doesn't.)

> >Is <w> /v/? I thought it was supposed to be something different, but I
> >can't hear the difference between it and (either Dutch or English) <v>.
>
> At risk of getting into a renewed discussion with Christophe about this
> matter, I'd venture [v]. After <u> (especially in word-final positions,
> like "lauw", "nieuw", etc.) it is pronounced [w].
Okay. If it helps, my ear backs up your assessment if Christophe pipes up :)

> I my opinion (but I should hasten to add that I'm quite conservative in
> such matters) an alveolar trill is preferable. Many alternative
> pronunciations exist and are used, depending on both region, social class,
> and age.
Well, an alveolar sound is inheritly better to a velar one IMHO :)

> Dutch typewriters used to have a separate key for "ij" as one character (on
> the positions where an American keyboard has ";", i.e. under the right
> pink). However, since computers got into use, people tend to write "ij" as
> two separate letters. Especially since we usually work with American
> keyboard layouts.
How evil :)

> >Tanke val (?),
>
> Not correct, but very inspiring. Perhaps an idea for Føtisk?
> You should have written "bedankt", "hartelijk dank", or someting similar.
> By the way, you're welcome anyway! ;))
I was more concerned about the spelling, actually. It's _definitely_ what
Oma, Mum, Harrie and Mien use for 'Thankyou' (and what Oma and Mum have
explicitly said is the word on many an occasion). Perhaps a dialect/time
thing? (Mum's dialect is obviously going to be oldfashioned for her age
and bad.)

And for it to be Føtisk, it would have to be a borrowing; the /T/ of thank
would become /f/. But that's obviously not an impossibility :)

Hartelijk dank, :)

Tristan.

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