Re: Verbal Inflection for Formality

On Thu, 22 Jun 2006, Roger Mills wrote:
>
> Eldin Raigmore wrote;
>
> > On Thu, 22 Jun 2006 13:52:21 -0400, Roger Mills wrote:
> >
> > "We" is used as if first-person-singular by Popes and Emperors and Kings
> > and Queens in European languages.  Furthermore it gets plural agreement.
> > "We are not amused", Victoria said; not "We am not amused".
> >
> > > I'd view things like Usted, Sie, vous, Your Grace/Majesty/etc.
> > > as simple vocab. replacements;
>
> We do that a lot too. It tends to confuse people who don't know us :-)))
> >
> > So far I think I'd agree with you.
> >
> > >they don't require completely different verbs or verb forms.
> >
> > Here I'd disagree in part.
>
> What I meant was, the verbal forms required are within
> the normal range; you don't have to use a different base
> or ending. Using a 3d person form simply is a way of
> distancing (w.r.t. status) speaker from Noble Hearer.
>
> The analogue, as I conceive it would be if Eur. languages
> had a whole nother set of vocab. and endings used in the
> polite mode--
>
> Vous cambrusc trchi gesartimet 'vous etes tres gentil'
> (to a nobleman) whereas one would have to say say 'vous
> etes tres gentil' to a superior non-noble, and 'tu es tres
> couaque' to a close friend.
>
> > > Much the way Indonesian uses titles/offices etc. for
> > > politeness or when dealing with superiors. Then, along
> > > with familiar aku 'I', there's much more common saya,
> > > IIRC from a Skt. word for 'slave'.
Yep.  Malay writes it 'sahaya', but pronounces
it [s_haya].


> I just remembered-- there a native word (IIRC) hamba
> 'slave' that can also be used for "I" but my guess is it's
> quite pass.
"passé"?  Well, no, in Kelantan and Pattani Malay,
it's the commonest form for "I", but usually pro-
nounced [ambo].


> One of the (wise) reasons minority Malay was chosen
> for Indonesia's national language was precisely that
> it didn't have the complicated and "undemocratic"
> respect levels of majority Javanese. (Plus the fact that
> all ethnic groups outside Java already knew at least
> some Malay as L2, but zero Javanese)
> >
> > (Thanks.  Indonesian and Javanese were some of the
> > ones I was trying to think of.)
> >
> > And do the speaker-humble forms take third-person
> > verb-agreement when the (humble) speaker is the
> > subject?
>
> Fortunately there isn't a lot of agreement morphology
> in Indonesian, and although I'm not sure, probably not
> in Javanese either.
>
> In Indon. it only crops up in the so-called passive:
> ACTIVE
> Aku/saya menulis buku itu (meN+tulis is active)
> - I write/wrote that book
> Kamu/Saudara/Anda/Dokter/Bapak/Pak Suharto/
> Pak Profesor (et al.) menulis buku itu
> - You write/wrote that book
> Ia/Ali/Dr./You, resp./Pak Suharto etc menulis buku itu
> - He/Ali/The doctor/ ??? /MR Suharto etc write/wrote
> that book
>
> PASSIVE
> Buku itu ditulisnya ~...ditulis Ali ~...ditulis Pak Suharto
> - That book was written by him ~Ali ~Mr.Suharto etc
> ......(3d person referent)
>
> BUT:
> a) Buku itu kutulis (fam.) ~...saya tulis (more formal) ...by me
> (You can't say ditulis aku/saya etc.)
Malay says:
 (A) "Buku itu ditulis oleh saya"
- That book was written by me.
OR
 (B) "Buku itu tulisan saya"
- That book is [of] my writing.

> b) Buku itu kautulis (fam.) ...was written by "thee"
> .... Saudara/Anda tulis (more formal) ...was written by 'vous'
Malay says:
 (A) "Buku itu ditulis oleh engkau/kamu"
- That book was written by thee.
OR
 (B) "Buku itu tulisan engkau/kamu"
- That book is [of] thy writing.

The forms "kutulis", "kautulis" etc, while known
in Malay, are literary, most commonly found in
lagu (song), sajak (modern poetry), syair (a
classic poetry form) and pantun (a classic anti-
phonal verse form).  I've never once heard them
spoken in ordinary speech in Malaysia.


> Now: I am not sure, since the occasion never arose,
> whether one would say
> _(1) buku itu ditulis Pak Suharto_ OR
> (2) buku itu Pak Suharto tulis
> in direct address., but I strongly suspect it's (2),
> since the rule is "In passive, a 1st or 2nd pers. agent
> goes before the verb."
Malay says:
 (A) "Buku itu ditulis oleh Pak Suharto"
- That book was written by you, [Pak Suharto].
OR
 (B) "Buku itu tulisan Pak Suharto"
- That book is [of] your writing, [Pak Suharto].


> Maybe Yahya Abdal-Aziz can answer this....?
> Suppose you're talking to a General or Governor,
> and you want to say: "The problem that (you) have
> mentioned..."  This would require a "passive" con-
> struction: would you say
> "So'alnya yang Pak Jendral sebut..." or
> "So'alnya yang disebut Pak Jendral..."  ???
> Enquiring minds want to know.
The second form is closer.  However, I'd
probably use "soalan" (question) rather than
"soalnya" (its question):

(Malaysia, with honorific "Tuan"=Lord):
 "So'alan yang disebut Tuan Jeneral ..."

(Indonesia, with honorific "Pak"=Father):
 "So'alan yang disebut Pak Jendral ..."

Even the "General" has a slightly different
name ...


> > ("the honorific system" includes what gets done to mark
> > some actants as humble, as well as what gets done to
> > exalt other actants.)
"actant" = "actor", "participant" ???


> Truly.
> >
> > BTW there are languages where part of the honorific
> > system is in the voice; an honorific referent can't ever
> > be a non-subject participant of a clause which has a
> > non-honorific subject.  So if a lot is happening or has
> > happened or is going to happen to a prince, and you're
> > telling someone about it, you use the passive voice a _lot_.
When I first arrived in Malaysia, it was on a holiday with
a friend from very rural Trengganu, where they take such
things seriously.  I was told in no uncertain terms that one
did not use the active voice when addressing a prince or
king (tengku or raja); rather, everything had to be placed
in passive form!  Luckily, when I later made friends with
several of the nobility, I found them far less stuffy than
that.  But I suspect they would not have treated my friend
as familiarly as they did me, and as they expected me to
treat them.  A lot has to do with perceived rank, or
prestige.  As a Malay commoner, even though of very good
family, he had a certain place; as a foreign intellectual
worker, I had another place entirely, not at all due to my
innate good qualities, but one assigned to me by my rôle
in society: a well-educated teacher.  The "teacher" part
of this ("guru") was by far the most important aspect.


> If not passive, at least the special "honorific" voice. That
> would be interesting.
> > ....
> > Of course you know better than I, but check again and
> > see whether when one refers to oneself as "the sole of
> > the foot" one's actions don't take third-person agreement.
>
> I simply don't know enough Jav. to say; for Malay/Indo.
> one would have to scour written works, esp. old ones, to
> see how it's handled.
Since the verb in the active voice is not inflected
for person, number, gender or tense, what is there
to go on?  Only the change of mood, from active to
passive, already noted; and the formality of self-
reference.

Some examples of the latter:

"Bapak, minta ma'af, s'aya 'n'ak 'gi sekolah
sa'at'ni"
"Dad, 'scuse me [beg pardon], I wanna go
t'school right now [this moment]"

"Ayah, sahaya minta ma'af, sahaya mahu pergi ke
sekolah sekarang"
"Father, I beg [your] pardon, I want to go to
school now"

"Tuan Jeneral, dipohon izin supaya hamba Tuan
tinggal"
"Lord General, [it is] requested permission in order
that [the Lord's ie] your servant [might] leave"

In the last one, note how the speaker simultaneously
abases himself (hamba) and elevates his addressee
(Tuan).

Regards,
Yahya


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