Re: CHAT: opposite of "verneinen"

Henrik Theiling said:
> Hi!
>
> "Mark P. Line" <mark@...> writes:
>> > I wouldn't let google decide what's good language so easily.  Further,
>> > the feminime word is totally uncommon, I've never heard it.
>>
>> I'm not interested in delineating "good language".
>
> Why not?
If you take "good language" in the prescriptive sense, then it's simply an
area of applied linguistics that I don't happen to be very interested in.

If you take "good language" in a descriptive sense as you mention below,
then my position is that "acceptable by most native speakers" is too vague
(or worse: circular) to be of any use.

Variety is a given in all natlangs. In any natlang with as many speakers
as German, there is no single configuration of features that is
"acceptable by most native speakers" (even if you believe that such a
concept can be usefully operationalized). Some German speakers know and
use the word 'Geek', and some don't. Some Geman speakers know and use the
word 'rekursiv', some don't. The difference is that 'rekursiv' is (a) not
as recent a loan, and (b) was already an English technical term (not a
slang term) when it was borrowed into German. This gives 'rekursiv' higher
"status" than 'Geek'. But lower status of a word doesn't mean it's not a
word or that not enough people know it to make it useful.


>> I'm interested in delineating actual usage. For that, google is an
>> excellent tool.
>
> You misunderstood me.  By 'good' language, I merely meant 'acceptable
> by most native speakers', not 'good' the the sense of some official
> rule set devised by people not used to recent use of their language.
> That seems to match the usage that you want to delineate.
>
> Google is an excellent tool for statistics, that's right.  But you
> have to use and interpret it correctly.  E.g. you have to have a look
> at what kind of results you get and see whether the hits match the
> context you expect.  The first n hits for 'geek' contain it in the
> compound 'geek code', which *is* in common use.  It does not mean that
> it is known what the components mean.
I wasn't trying to imply that all 85,000 hits for 'geek' on
German-language pages are necessarily good data points for the usage. I
guess I should have stated explicitly that even if only 0.1% of those hits
represent solid data points for 'der Geek', there'd be some 850 of them --
certainly enough to establish its presence in the language (even if its
presence is not widespread, which is neither here nor there -- 'rekursiv'
isn't widespread either).


> But you still might want to use a word that is understood when
> speaking German, don't you?
I want to use a word that is understood by the people I'm talking to.
"Understood when speaking German" is simply not an absolute.


> As I wrote earlier today, I think 'Hacker' might be a more appropriate
> word in German, because that one *is* known.
There is no synonym for 'der Geek' in modern German. A 'Hacker' is not a
'Geek', just as a 'hacker' is not a 'geek'.


I don't think there can be any question about 'Geek' having found its way
into German:

http://www.geek.de/
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geek
http://www.heise.de/tp/deutsch/inhalt/lis/11997/1.html
http://www.ibs.uni-bielefeld.de/src/Geek
http://www.ibs.uni-bielefeld.de/src/X_dcbergeeks

http://www.computerwoche.de/index.cfm?type=detail&artid=47767&category=160&Pageid=255

http://www.thinx.ch/m/mandanten/1/topic663.html
http://www.linux-community.de/Neues/story?storyid=4334
http://www.at-mix.de/geek.htm
http://www.dzug.org/tagungen/hamburg/programm/smart-open-source
http://www.evolver.at/gantar-world/20020929-0012.html
http://bronski.net/wp-archiv/2003/02/07/multifunktions-rechner-geek-moebel/

http://www.sekretaria.de/version01/page/misc/KronachOnline20190501.php?pageid=230

http://www.kochandreas.com/home/single.htm


-- Mark

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