Re: A Survey

--- Rob Haden <magwich78@...> wrote:
> I'm curious to see everyone's answers to the
> following questions:
>
> 1. Does your language(s) distinguish between
> active ("X breaks Y"), middle
> ("X breaks (apart)"), and passive ("X is broken
> (by Y)")?
Kerno distinguished active, impersonal and
passive-reflexive. Talarian distinguishes between
active and middle. I think it doesn't have a
passive as we'd understand it. (Makes for some
interesting translational gymnastics!)

> 2. If the answer to #1 was "yes," what
> method(s) does your language(s) use
> to make some/all of the above distinctions?
Kerno:

It's a Romance language that wears a kilt, so in
essence, it does things in a Romance fashion. The
active verb looks like a conventional active verb
in French or Spanish. Its Celtic roots show in
the retention of the -r passive; though one could
argue (and I think successfully) that the -r
passive is simply a remnant of the
Latin-as-a-second-language current in early
Dûnein.

I'll use the soup examples as well:

active
------

couisens il Roberts l' ystoufe
cooks-ACT the Robert the soup

(Literally, Robert heats soup on the stove. Coser
means more to cook from scratch. I'm assuming
Robert has opened a tin of Paneacoua's Chicken
Soup.)

impersonal
----------

Turns out to be a kind of necessative.

couiseneor l' ystoufs!
must.cook-PASS the soup

(This could mean "you must try this recipe!" or
"I'm famished and this tin of Paneacoua's is
bègging me to open it up!")

passive
-------

ast couisenoes l' ystoufs per lê Roberte.
is cooked the soup by the Robert

The typical esser + past participle that makes up
the modern passive in Kerno.

reflexive
---------

Works out to be like the middle.

couisens-si mezisif l' ystoufs.
cooks-self own.self the soup

A certain kind of verb (like laouar-si (wash),
gouestir-si (dress), etc.) are actual reflexives.
Others tend to be understood as middle.

Talarian:

active
------

(durative)
hawehhati Rupartas-co sawecrôs-to-he
cooks-HAB Robert-FOCUS soup-TOPIC-and

(punctual)
hawehhti Rupartas-co sawecrôs-to-he
is.cooking ...

Talarian finds the distinction of ACTIVE v.
STATIVE to be of fundamental importance. Beyond
that, Durative v. Punctual is important.

middle
------

hawehhatar sawecrôs-co-he
cook-MID soup-FOCUS-and

Note that once the sawecrôs is cooked, it becomes
sawectôs. Both are verbal nouns, one gives the
idea of "soup in the act of cooking", and thus
means "raw soup" or "uncooked soup"; the other
gives the idea of "cooked soup". The example noun
in the grammar is hasrôs/hastôs, both meaning
"burning thing". Hasrôs, in the act of burning,
is "fire"; hastôs, having been burnt, is "ember".

> 3. What method(s) does your language(s) use to
> distinguish between basic
> nouns and verbs of the same root (i.e. "a hit"
> vs. "he hits")?
Kerno:

Nouns are declined, with nominal morphology and
stem forms. Verbs are conjugated with verbal
morphology.

Talarian:

You mean it's possible to distinguish nouns from
verbs? How strange is that! :)

There are root extensions that tend to signify
"noun" or "verb"; but by in large, roots are
indistinguishable. The fact that there are also
so many kinds of verbal nouns (soup, above, is in
fact a verbal noun) clouds the distinction
between a noun (a word that names a thing or
quality) and a verb (a word that names an
action). It boils down to essential (or
transcendental?) Talarian grammar: there are
Particles which determine the functions of all
other words; and then there are all the other
words. Nouns and verbs are simply two sides of
the same tarxam.

Padraic.


=====
- Per y celles ke 'n al noef chluys feronte y vruxt la mezer; a Ddon et Dde lor
gouertus, renothe y nusteor pheticièn

- A Ddon ten mezer!

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