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Re: A Survey

From:Costentin Cornomorus <elemtilas@...>
Date:Wednesday, October 1, 2003, 0:45
--- Rob Haden <magwich78@...> wrote:
> I'm curious to see everyone's answers to the > following questions: > > 1. Does your language(s) distinguish between > active ("X breaks Y"), middle > ("X breaks (apart)"), and passive ("X is broken > (by Y)")?
Kerno distinguished active, impersonal and passive-reflexive. Talarian distinguishes between active and middle. I think it doesn't have a passive as we'd understand it. (Makes for some interesting translational gymnastics!)
> 2. If the answer to #1 was "yes," what > method(s) does your language(s) use > to make some/all of the above distinctions?
Kerno: It's a Romance language that wears a kilt, so in essence, it does things in a Romance fashion. The active verb looks like a conventional active verb in French or Spanish. Its Celtic roots show in the retention of the -r passive; though one could argue (and I think successfully) that the -r passive is simply a remnant of the Latin-as-a-second-language current in early Dûnein. I'll use the soup examples as well: active ------ couisens il Roberts l' ystoufe cooks-ACT the Robert the soup (Literally, Robert heats soup on the stove. Coser means more to cook from scratch. I'm assuming Robert has opened a tin of Paneacoua's Chicken Soup.) impersonal ---------- Turns out to be a kind of necessative. couiseneor l' ystoufs! must.cook-PASS the soup (This could mean "you must try this recipe!" or "I'm famished and this tin of Paneacoua's is bègging me to open it up!") passive ------- ast couisenoes l' ystoufs per lê Roberte. is cooked the soup by the Robert The typical esser + past participle that makes up the modern passive in Kerno. reflexive --------- Works out to be like the middle. couisens-si mezisif l' ystoufs. cooks-self own.self the soup A certain kind of verb (like laouar-si (wash), gouestir-si (dress), etc.) are actual reflexives. Others tend to be understood as middle. Talarian: active ------ (durative) hawehhati Rupartas-co sawecrôs-to-he cooks-HAB Robert-FOCUS soup-TOPIC-and (punctual) hawehhti Rupartas-co sawecrôs-to-he ... Talarian finds the distinction of ACTIVE v. STATIVE to be of fundamental importance. Beyond that, Durative v. Punctual is important. middle ------ hawehhatar sawecrôs-co-he cook-MID soup-FOCUS-and Note that once the sawecrôs is cooked, it becomes sawectôs. Both are verbal nouns, one gives the idea of "soup in the act of cooking", and thus means "raw soup" or "uncooked soup"; the other gives the idea of "cooked soup". The example noun in the grammar is hasrôs/hastôs, both meaning "burning thing". Hasrôs, in the act of burning, is "fire"; hastôs, having been burnt, is "ember".
> 3. What method(s) does your language(s) use to > distinguish between basic > nouns and verbs of the same root (i.e. "a hit" > vs. "he hits")?
Kerno: Nouns are declined, with nominal morphology and stem forms. Verbs are conjugated with verbal morphology. Talarian: You mean it's possible to distinguish nouns from verbs? How strange is that! :) There are root extensions that tend to signify "noun" or "verb"; but by in large, roots are indistinguishable. The fact that there are also so many kinds of verbal nouns (soup, above, is in fact a verbal noun) clouds the distinction between a noun (a word that names a thing or quality) and a verb (a word that names an action). It boils down to essential (or transcendental?) Talarian grammar: there are Particles which determine the functions of all other words; and then there are all the other words. Nouns and verbs are simply two sides of the same tarxam. Padraic. ===== - Per y celles ke 'n al noef chluys feronte y vruxt la mezer; a Ddon et Dde lor gouertus, renothe y nusteor pheticièn - A Ddon ten mezer! -- Ill Bethisad -- <> Come visit The World! -- <> .


Adam Walker <carrajena@...>
Ray Brown <ray.brown@...>Medio-passive (was: A Survey)