Re: CHAT: Citrons (was: Danny Wier's PIE (was: Vocab #5))

> Date:         Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:03:56 -0400
> From: Steg Belsky <draqonfayir@...>
>
> The website Snunit http://www1.snunit.k12.il has a searchable archive of
> Jewish religious texts, including the Bible and the Talmud.
> Multiple occurances of |erez| in Vayiqra (Leviticus) chapter 14, the
> instructions for purification of someone smitten with |tzara`at|
> (commonly translated as 'leprosy', but it probably isn't).
> Multiple occurances throughout Tehillim (Psalms), including 29:5 (your
> numbering may vary) - "the voice of God breaks cedars, God breaks the
> cedars of Lebanon".
> Various other examples of the compound "cedar(s) of Lebanon", or
> association of cedars with Lebanon:
> Zekharya (Zachariah?) 11:1
> Kings-I 5 (multiple times)
> Shofetim 9:15
> Yesha`yahu (Isaiah) 2:13
> Yehhezqeil (Ezekiel) 31:3
Well, that's pretty old stuff, so at least it shows that hadar wasn't
the usual word for the cedar tree in later Biblical Hebrew. (The use
in Leviticus is for cedar wood --- not exactly the same as the tree
itself).

> The word |etrog| (citron) doesn't occur in the Bible, although it occurs
> in the Aramaic translation of the "fruit of the beautiful tree" verse,
> and it occurs many times in the Mishna (first post-Biblical Jewish legal
> compendium, c. 200 CE) when discussing the fruit needed for the holiday
> of Sukkot.
So we can be sure that citrons were used when that was written down
--- after the fall of the Temple. Is it known where it was compiled?

> Hrrm... i'd consider it a safe bet that if a cedar had been meant, it
> would have said |erez|.  Actually, i just realized that |pri `eitz hadar|
> is an ambiguous construct-and-adjective phrase: it could be "fruit of (a)
> beautiful tree" or beautiful fruit of (a) tree".
> The earliest references to |etrog| i know of are in the Mishna...
> although in one of those places it talks about a priest-king of the
> Hasmonean dynasty (c. 100BCE i think) getting pelted with citrons
> because the people disagreed with how he was performing a ritual.
Was this in connection with Sukkot, or did etrogs just happen to be
involved for some other reason?

> I don't know where the website is basing it's claim that |hadar| =
> |erez|, though. I've only ever seen it as an adjective meaning
> "beautiful" or "splendid".
It's basing it on the idea that Greek got the word kedros from Hebrew
hadar. In principle, there could have been two words for the tree in
Hebrew, with Greek borrowing one that is otherwise only preserved in
the Sukkot ritual. (Kedros only means cedar, and the derived kedris
means juniper berry --- the connection to citrus fruit only appears
later, in Latin).

Or, as you say, hadar in Biblical Hebrew could have been an adjective
applied to the fruit or cone used --- but if the Greeks borrowed that
word and used it for the cedar tree, instead of borrowing erez, that
still points to a connection between cedars and the ritual.

But of course the Greek word might come from something completely
different. I still consider the whole question open.

Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dep) <thorinn@...> (Humour NOT marked)