Re: The Magical Tree (Translation project)

On Wed, 22 Sep 1999, Paul Bennett wrote:

> This is my first ever translation of any text of more than a single
> phrase in length into Wenetaic.  I've had to invent most of the roots
> "on the fly", borrowing hastily and without forethought from a variety
> of Indo-european langs.  There's a special prize (inna bun) for anyone
Does it perhaps bear a striking similarity to something that might just
be labelled "Miscellaneous Pork-like Product"?  Makes me eyes water, that
does!

> who can deduce the etymologies of them, with some plausible sound-change
> rules.
I'll take a stab at a few.  I don't recognise much of the morphology (I
guess this is supposed to be the case?)  Remind me: is Wenetaic an IE
lang?  Or a nonIE lang whose vocabulary seems to about 80% or more IE?

> As with all my posts that actually state anything about my Conlang(s),
> please, please make suggestions, ask questions and (if need be) mock
> openly.
One suggestion only, and it's a matter of legibility more than anything
else.  When making an interlinear, I at least find it easier to read when
words or word-like phrases line up.  E.g.:


pukhtup mis'tepatak phorophepap.
pukhtu.p      mis'te.k.a.ta.p                phorophe.p.a.p
fruit(NP).F5  unnatural(NP).F6.Near.Attr.F5  bear(VC).F5.Near.F5
"Far away, hidden by the sun, is a magical tree that bears magical fruit."

rather than:

pukhtup mis'tepatak phorophepap.
pukhtu.p mis'te.k.a.ta.p phorophe.p.a.p
fruit(NP).F5 unnatural(NP).F6.Near.Attr.F5 bear(VC).F5.Near.F5
"Far away, hidden by the sun, is a magical tree that bears magical fruit."

which is all scrunched up and difficult to see the breaks.  Perhaps put a
couple of spaces between the words.  This is especially handy for
languages that tack lots of bits onto words; making for long interlinears.

I do like the way you've separated the morphological bits with dots.  This
most certainly facilitates keeping everything straight.  Well, meandering
in a general way, at least. :)

> The harder you push me, the faster I'll learn.  :-)
If we push hard enough, you'd become quite intimate with the wall.  I
suppose you _could_ learn phase shifting quite quickly, though. :)

Now the hard bit.

> sore"rup phomup mitepatak orup,
> so.r.e".ru.p phomu.p mite.p.a.ta.k o.ru.p
> sun(NS).F4.Obs.Loc.F5 tree.F5 unnatural(NS).F6.Near.Attr.F5 Far.Loc.F6
so- appears to be from saawel- or perhaps sun-
o- perhaps from al- (beyond)

> pukhtup mis'tepatak phorophepap.
> pukhtu.p mis'te.k.a.ta.p phorophe.p.a.p
> fruit(NP).F5 unnatural(NP).F6.Near.Attr.F5 bear(VC).F5.Near.F5
> "Far away, hidden by the sun, is a magical tree that bears magical fruit."
pukhtu- from bheug- (swell)
phorophe- from bher- (bear)
a- perhaps from ad- (near, at)

> putup phowphe"tataat, cuuwik ayit,
> putu.p phowphe".t.a.taa.t, cuuwi.k a.yi.t
> fruit(NS).F5 eat(VI).F3.Near.V/N.F3 young(NS).F6 Near.Move.F3
phowphe"- maybe a reduplication of pooi- (graze)
yi- from ghee- (go away)

> wecek ayitne", patok ayitne".
> wece.k a.yi.t.ne", pato.k a.yi.t.ne"
> old(NS).F6.Near Move.F3.Neg sickness(NS).F6.Near Move.F3.Neg
> "The eater of the fruit becomes young and does not grow old nor unwell"
wece- from wet- (year)
pato- perhaps from pu- (rot, decay)
-ne from ne (not)

> Mamnutanur pukhupit tutuut.
> mamnu.t.a.nu.r pukhupi.t t.u.tuu.t
> man(NP).F3.Near.Prod.F4 fight(VC).F3 F5.App.Part.F3
> "Men fight each-other about it"
> ["It" is a bit ambiguous in both originals, so I decided to leave it even more
> ambiguous here, with no number-marking.]
mamnu- from man- (man)
pukhupi- from peuk- (prick; whence pugilist)

> E"nge"e"k, mamnutacet phomupayak wiwkhikat.
> e".nge"e".k, mamnu.t.a.ce.t phomu.p.a.ya.k wiwkhi.k.a.t
> Obs.Past.F6, man(NP).F3.Near.Comp.F3 tree(NS).F5.Near.Hab.F6 win(VI).F6.Near.F3
> "In the (mythical) past, some of the men won the tree (and all that is
> associated with it)."
> [Note the use of F6 in phomupayak to show the concept of "the tree and all that
> is associated with it", rather than phomupayap which would have mean
> "something that is
> associated with the tree".  The F3 inside wiwkhikat is in nominal agreement with
> this.]
wiwkhi- perhaps associated with wen- (strive for, whence win)

> Murop makhepatak phomuporuk murmopat.
> muro.p makhe.p.a.ta.k phomu.p.o.ru.k murmo.p.a.t
> wall(NS).F5 great(NS).F5.Near.Attr.F6 tree(NS).F5.Far.Loc.F6 wall(VI).F5.Near.F3
> "They built a great wall around the tree."
muro- from mei- (build fortifications)
makhe- from meg- (great)

> phomupayak mumrokataat.
> phomu.p.a.ya.k mumro.k.a.taa.t
> tree(NS).F5.Near.Hab.F6 wall(NP).F6.Near.V/N.F3
> "They victoriously fought other men, and guarded the tree (and all that is
> associated with it)."
I wonder if phomu- is in some way related to Latin pomum.

> Phomup, morup phomophupataak kapkepne",
> phomu.p moru.p phomophu.p.a.taa.p kapke.p.ne"
> tree(NS).F5 death(NS).F5 tree(VC).F5.Near.V/N.F6 have(VI).F5.Neg
moru- from mer- (harm; die)
kapke- from kap- (grasp)

> patapokatakangoopange"e"p
> patapo.k.a.ta.k.a.ngoo.p.a.nge"e".p
> sicken(VC).F6.Near.Att.F6.Near.Fut.F5.Near.Past.F5
> "The tree, having no nourishing corpses, began to sicken."
patapo- perhaps from pu- (rot, decay)

Why do all the stops become vl stops or vl aspirates _except_ gh-?

        bh > p, ph
        p  > p, ph
        k  > k, kh
        g  >    kh
but     gh > y

On the whole, W. seems to be a devoicing lang; where voiced consonants
become voiceless.  Also seems to be heavily into vl aspiration.  Perhaps
speakers of Wenetaic don't mark a distinction between p & ph.

It reminds me a little of Tallarian (an IE lang I've been toying with): it
too tends towards devoicing consonants; and also reduces most of the
labials and aspirates to "h" [dh has been deaspirated and devoiced to th
(as in thorn), but hasn't been reduced to h yet]. I'm not quite sure I
follow W's incessant marking of "near" and "far"; but it looks like T may
be doing something similar (and equally incessant), since it marks all the
important nouns in a phrase with similar near and far markers, roughly
equating to "this" and "that".  It tends to translate as "the", but does
carry information about location and proximity.

Padraic.