Re: Announcement: New auxlang "Choton"

--- In conlang@yahoogroups.com, "Pascal A. Kramm" <pkramm@A...> wrote:

> Strange? It's a normal Langenscheidt dictionary. It also includes
the Ipa
> pronunciation at the beginning.
Aren't the Langenscheidts made for Germans who learn other
languages?  I doubt they would invest much effort in the
notation of German pronunciation.

The Duden, on the other hand, is the uncontested authority
on Standard German.  There is even a whole Duden volume
(Aussprachewörterbuch) dedicated to pronunciation, with a
127-page textbook section.  Apart from the Standard
(Genormte Lautung), it also describes the non-standard
reduced (Unterlautung) and exaggerated (Überlautung) and
stage (Bühnenlautung) variations in detail.

And guess what: Nowhere does it suggest that short ä and
short e should be any different from each other, and any
different from [E].



> On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 19:54:17 -0000, Christian Thalmann <cinga@G...>
wrote:
>
> >You know, I was wrong in my second post.  You *do* make
> >a rather arrogant impression.
>
> You apparently can't make up your mind...
So you think one should stick with one's first impression
even if new evidence contradicts it?  That would at least
explain why you still haven't dropped the case.



> Besides, just pointing out the differerence you fail to notice makes me
> arrogant? very interesting...
Suggesting that we are bad of hearing despite the status
quo backing us up is arrogant, yes.



> >You're the only speaker
> >of German on this list to claim such a difference,
>
> The only one? Just because you fail to notice the difference, you
> automatically conclude that everyone else wouldn't notice it either?
Oh my...

So far, several have spoken out against the difference, and
only a non-native tends to agree with you.



> >and all the dictionaries agree with us.  If |Sätze| and
> >|setze| sounded different, the distinction would be
> >phonemic, and it would be downright sloppy not to include
> >it in the Duden.
>
> "You have very strange dictionaries..."
Yeah, the Duden is downright exotic.



> (nah, just joking)
> The Ipa spelling in the dictionaries was created by native English
speakers
> who generally can't hear a difference, so of course the dictionaries
won't
> list one either.
Certainly not in the Duden.  Also, the IPA was created by
linguists, not just "English speakers".



> >My impression is that you are referring to a feature of
> >your local dialect, rather than standard Hochdeutsch.
>
> It's rather the very opposite. Apparently your local dialect is
influenced
> by English speakers, explaining why you can't hear a difference just
like them.

Exqueeze me?  How should English speakers influence my
dialect in Central Europe?



> >Isn't it an evident conclusion that this is all
> >subjective, that different native people of the same
> >language will pronounce a different way, depending on
> >plenty of parameters, and that the main thing is that
> >they understand each other ?
>
> That's a good point you got there.
As far as communication is concerned, sure.  We were
talking about Standard German, though, and that is not
a matter of discussion, being official and well-defined.



> See? Even you as a non-native speaker can hear the difference!
...in his non-native, non-immersively-learned German.
How is that supposed to be relevant?  A foreign learner
acquires spelling together with pronunciation, rather
than pronunciation alone as we natives do, so his
pronunciation is easily influenced by spelling.

(No offense, Philippe. ;-)



-- Christian Thalmann

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