Infinitives & gerunds (was: How to kick the infinitive habit)

I've changed the subject line, as this part of the thread is clearly not
about kicking the infinitive habit. Rather, it is about interesting and
different uses of infinitives    :)

H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 03, 2006 at 10:40:02AM +0100, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]
>>But the gerundive a NP! This is a bit hard for us who have been
>>brought up with the Latin gerundive which is a verbal _adjective_. Are
>>you sure you're using the best terminology.
>
> Maybe not. In which case, I'd like to be enlightened as to what is
> better terminology to describe what TF is doing. :-)
>
> Maybe "participle" is a better term for the "infinitive"? Or maybe not.
Having looked more carefully at your examples, and looking at the TF
grammar http://conlang.eusebeia.dyndns.org/fara, I think they are indeed
infinitives - but TF's way of handling relative clauses is certainly
unusual! But why not?  :)

Just to recap your examples from your previous mail:
{quote}
tara' kei  uenai ibuneis           ka'aman      ia.
(she  ORG) want  (AUX_CVY:mushroom eat:INF_RCP) COMPL
She wants to eat the mushroom.
.....

huu sa  tapa tun   na  ibuneis      arapan      bata.
1sp CVY go   slope RCP CVY:mushroom pick_up:RCP COMPL
I go to the slope (of a mountain) to pick mushrooms.
{/quote}

I have no problem with these. The words concerned are clearly nouns as
they have the noun case postclitics; but they also have verbal functions
in that they have their own verb arguments. that is, they are verbal
nouns - i.e. infinitives.

But:
{quote}
Notably, the infinitive clause is identical in form and construction to
a relative clause modifying a noun:
baan      ikaren    muras kuinin   sei  tanap buta' fei  imi tsi.
(old_lady (CVY:shoe black own:RCP) CVY) dwell hut   that in  COMPL
The old lady who owns the black shoes lives in that hut.
{/quote}

Well, yes, this is TF's infinitive. It is AFAIK a quite unique way of
handling relative clauses - as I said, I familiar with the idea of using
a participle clause to express this idea (The old lady, the [one] owning
the shoes, lives in that hut), but you haven't use a participle. It's
certainly an interesting  way of dealing with things  :)

> And perhaps I should just call the "gerundive" a plain ole gerund,
> because that's really what it is, except that the nouns that modify it
> appear in secondary forms.
Yes, I think it would be better called just the plain ole gerund  :)

They are definitely verbal nouns, as far as I can see, so I definitely
think 'gerund' would be a better term.

([snip]
> NP's in embedded/subordinate clauses. The arguments to a gerundive, or a
> gerund, are marked using the latter.) Thus, it is possible to speak of a
> gerundive phrase (or gerund phrase?) comprising of the gerund itself
> plus its arguments, which are overtly distinct from the other NP's in
> the main clause. What is the best terminology to describe this?
gerund phrase, or maybe 'gerundial phrase'?

>
>
>>>The infinitive is used when the subject NP inside the sub-clause is
>>>the same as the subject NP of the main clause.
>>
>>Sort of like we find in certain constructions in ancient Greek  :)
>
> Article + infinitive?
No - I was thinking of clauses expressed with acc+infinitive, like they
have in Latin. If the subject of the infinitive is the same as that of
the main verb, Latin a reflexive pronoun, but Greek simply used the
infin. with no 'accusative subject'.
Cf. English:
I want us to go.
But
I want to go (Not: *I want me to go)

>>>The gerundive is used when the action is independent of the subject
>>>NP of the main clause.
>>
>>OK - but why isn't it called a gerund?
>
> Maybe it should be? :-) The main thing, I think, is that TF gerunds can
> take NP arguments,
So could Latin gerunds and so do English gerunds (tho not subject
arguments, but both can take all other verbal arguments).

[snip]
> So maybe I should just call it a gerund.
Yes, I think so.

>>>More examples of the infinitive:
>>>	huu sa  tapa tun   na  ibuneis      arapan      bata.
>>>	1sp CVY go   slope RCP CVY:mushroom pick_up:RCP COMPL
>>>	I go to the slope (of a mountain) to pick mushrooms.
>>
>>Ah! An infinitive to show purpose. Not uncommon - but there are
>>languages with infinitives that do not allow them to be used this way.
>
>
> Interesting. There is actually another way to indicate purpose in TF,
> using the postpositional _utu_ ("for the purpose of"):
>
> 	huu sa  tapa tun   na  ibuneis       arapan   utu  bata.
> 	1sp CVY go   slope RCP (CVY:mushroom pick:RCP for) COMPL
> 	I go to the slope for the purpose of picking mushrooms.
>
> One could argue that the so-called "infinitive" in the previous example
> is really just an abbreviated form of this latter construction, with
> _utu_ elided.
I guess one could. In English dialect, forms like "I go to the slope of
the hill [all] for to pick mushrooms" were still around in the early
20th cent - but probably died out now   :=(

[snip]
>
>>BTW some prescriptive grammars will tell you that (b) is
>>'ungrammatical' and that you must use (c). But the ancient authors
>>themselves were not aware of that rule   ;)
>
> Hehe... makes one wonder where the prescriptivists got that 'rule' from.
> :-)
They have a habit of turning _tendencies_ into fixed 'rules' - even if
it means saying things like "Caesar's Latin is not as good as Cicero's"
- crazy  ;)

--
Ray
==================================
ray@carolandray.plus.com
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB}

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