Re: OT: Opinions wanted: person of vocatives

--- "Mark J. Reed" <markjreed@...> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 09:10:38PM -0500, James
> Worlton wrote:
> > ¡Juan, ven acá! (John, come here!) "ven" is
> the familiar 2nd person
> > imperative form of the verb.
>
> Yes, but as a vocative, "Juan" isn't the
> subject of "ven"; the subject
> is an implied "tú".
And guess who "tu" is! Strictly speaking, a
vocative isn't a subject or an object case.
Nevertheless, the coincidence between the voc.
and the subject of a verb are quite high.

> The same is true in the
> English translation.
> The only way a vocative can be the subject of a
> verb is indirectly,
> by being the antecedent of a relative pronoun.
Which is what happens in both instances.

> The Spanish paternoster does, by the way, use
> the second person
> with the relative pronoun: "Padre nuestro, que
> estás en el cielo . . ."
> But I don't know whether or not that is, like
> the English, an
> artifact of the age of the translation (as is
> the fact that it's
> el Padre Nuestro instead of el Nuestro Padre).
Probably partly an artifact of age and partly
that Spanish hasn't generalised the third person
verb form with all relative verb persons. This
will be something to listen for in Spanish usage.
Except that we can't rely on "esta" being an
example, as that could easily be understood as
the formal 2s. (usted).

Padraic.


=====
beuyont alch geont la ciay la cina
mangeiont alch geont y faues la lima;
     pe' ne m' molestyont
     que faciont
doazque y facyont in rima.

.