Re: OT: Opinions wanted: person of vocatives

Mark J. Reed wrote:
> I'm working on paternosters in my two conlangs, and I have
> a question about the first line (wow, I've gotten far!).
>
> The older English form is "Our father, which art in heaven";
> the verb "art" is conjugated in the second person singular because "which"
> refers to "father", which is in the vocative; it's the person being
> addressed, and therefore considered second person.
>
> In modern English it's "Our father, who is in heaven".  The relative
> pronoun is considered third person because "father" - and indeed, all
> nouns - can only be third person in modern English.  Only the pronouns can
> be first or second person, though that can include relative pronouns when
> the antecedent is a personal pronoun: "I who am honored to be here";
> "You who are my friend", etc.
>
> So now I have a decision to make with my conlangs, which boils down to
> this: are vocative nouns considered to be second or third person?
>
> I thought I would solicit opinions from the group.  Informed reports of
> actual natlang usage, anecdotes about your own languages, and pure
> unadulterated aesthetic opinion are all welcome. :)
PUAO - Vocative would seem to require 2nd person. In the only natlang
other than English that I have enough experience with, the verb used
after a vocative (Hey Ron! or Daddy!!!) is clearly in 2nd person (Spanish):

¡Juan, ven acá! (John, come here!) "ven" is the familiar 2nd person
imperative form of the verb.

As far as the Paternoster goes, the rest of it sounds like it is
refering to "Our Father" in the 2nd person. "Hallowed by THY name. THY
kingdom come..." and so on. If I were doing it in Orêlynna, I would
definitely use the 2nd person. (Gotta get the relative pronouns figured
out first...)

--
=============
James Worlton
          "Time flies like an arrow.
           Fruit flies like a banana."
                           --Unknown

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