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Re: GROUPLANG: Pronouns

From:Pablo Flores <fflores@...>
Date:Friday, October 16, 1998, 16:39
Mathias M. Lassailly wrote:

>> Well, we seem to have set on >> >> agent >> patient >> undergoer >> absolutive >> causative >> modifier >> determinant >> predicate >> >> Mathias told us about the 10 "universal" cases. I personally think we >> can make do with the ones we have so far, which are already not a few. >> >I agree. I withdraw my 'absolutive', 'agent' and causative' cases. I suggest >you change the name of >'undergoer' into 'absolutive', which seems to be the correct lingics description for >this case, and >one among the next 'modifier' or 'determinant' cases into 'attributive'. Now we >could realize without >changing the system (only re-naming it) that we're halfway of ergative/absolutive >(=Basque, Sumerian) >and agent/patient/attribute (=some Amerindian and New-Guinean languages) >systems. Attributive is '-s' >in = hi-s parent, hi-s redness, hi-s arm, hi-s home, etc.
Sounds fine. Let us go back and define things (Nik seems to have missed the posts about cases, so I'll try and make some examples... for all of us). Agent: well, this is obvious, this is the one who is doing something to another one. "THE DOG bit me." Patient: this is the one who gets X-ed by an agent. "The dog bit ME." Absolutive: (previously undergoer) the one experiencing something without being its agent or its patient. "THE DOG sees me" Causative: the one causing an action to be performed over someone else. "HE got the dog killed" (caus-HE abs-dog pred-die, I think) Attributive: (previously modifier/determinant) having the stated attribute. "THE RED dog bit me" Predicate: this marks "verbs", i. e. actions, states, etc. "The dog BIT me"
>The '10 cases' don't count in lative, locative and situative cases. I suggest we >use suspensive verbs >for the latter : I let him go to the house thru woods = him woods go-thru-susp house go-to >By the way, what are the cases of 'I', 'him', 'woods' and 'house' ? How >structure 'I let him raise the >hand' ?
"I let him go-through woods, go-to the house" I should say: caus-I att-free abs-he woods pred-go_thru-susp, house pred-go_to "I cause him to be free to go through woods, [and] go into the house" * abs-he and not pat-he because I'm not exactly "freeing" him from chains... He's just free, because of me, but I didn't free him (that's why caus-I and not ag-I) and he hasn't been freed. * woods: uninflected or could it be absolutive? The woods are gone through... * house: same as for "woods". "I let him raise the hand" caus-I att-free abs-he ag-he pat-hand pred-rise That sounds more like "I let him free, and he raises the hand". But that would probably be caus-I abs-he pred-free "I cause him to be free" A bit twisted, but understandable, I think. --Pablo Flores