Theiling Online    Sitemap    Conlang Mailing List HQ   

Arvorec plural endings, replacement of cases

From:Tom Pullman <tom@...>
Date:Wednesday, June 6, 2001, 16:31
Well, I'm not Keith, but I'm not sure whether speakers of a language would ever take
the genitive plural for a nominative plural, especially if there was a
still-active dative case. The genitive is a more basic idea than the dative:
I'm not aware of any language with a dative that doesn't have a genitive. So if
a language is losing its noun cases, the dative will go before the genitive,
and if it's going to be one of them that's hijacked for the general plural
ending it's much more likely to be the dative, I'd say.

BTW there is an example of a dative taking over nominative status under our noses
in Irish: few words still have datives, but one which does is "Éire", Ireland.
Its dative is "Éirinn" and this is gradually replacing "Éire" as the
nominative. My guess as to why this is so is as follows:

 - people hear someone saying something with the dative, e.g. "i nÉirinn" "in Ireland".
 - they don't often hear the dative because it's dying out, and so is something
of a literary affection.
 - they therefore think it's more educated, but don't associate it with dative
case function and use it everywhere instead of the old nominative.

This last step can be seen in English when people have been taught to say "Robert
and I went to the shops" (e.g. not to put the first person pronoun first - I'm
not really sure why, maybe some idea of politeness) and continue to say "Robert
and I" even when the phrase is the object.

--- Dan Jones <feuchard@...>
> wrote: > > > ><DIV>Well, all this talk of plurals in Welsh and Brithenig has got me thinking >about the plausibility of the Arvorec plural endings. This is my derivation so >far:</DIV> ><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>O-stems</DIV> ><DIV>I've taken the dative plural -obe as my basic plural ending, giving the >Arvorec -ow.</DIV> ><DIV>Gaulish: aballos (nom s) --&gt; aballobe (dat pl)</DIV> ><DIV>Arvorec: aval (s) --&gt; avallow (pl)</DIV> ><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>A-stems</DIV> ><DIV>Paralelling the formation of the o-stems, I'm using the dative plural >again, -abe, to give Arvorec -aw.</DIV> ><DIV>Gaulish: banata (nom s) --&gt; banatabe (dat pl)</DIV> ><DIV>Arvorec: banad (s) --&gt; banadaw (pl)</DIV> ><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>I-stems</DIV> ><DIV>Instead of using the dative plural, I've used the genitive plural >-ion.</DIV> ><DIV>Gaulish: pettia (nom s) --&gt; pettion (gen pl)</DIV> ><DIV>Arvorec: peth (s) --&gt; pethyon (pl)</DIV> ><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>U-stems</DIV> ><DIV>Again, u-stems use the dative plural -uebo to give -wew:</DIV> ><DIV>Gaulish uebrus (nom s) --&gt; uebruebo (dat pl)</DIV> ><DIV>Arvorec: gwevyr (s) --&gt; gwevrwew (pl)</DIV> ><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>However, I'm thinking about copying the i-stems and use the ganitive plural >-uon, which would give</DIV> ><DIV>Gaulish: uebrus --&gt; uebruon</DIV> ><DIV>Arvorec: gwevyr --&gt; gwevron</DIV> ><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>N-stems</DIV> ><DIV>N-stems use the nominative plural -ones:#</DIV> ><DIV>Gaulish animon (nom s) -&gt; animones (nom pl)</DIV> ><DIV>Arvorec: aenyf --&gt; aenyvon</DIV> ><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>R-stems</DIV> ><DIV>R-stems are rare in Arvorec, and migrate to the&nbsp;o-stems.</DIV> ><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>Consonant stems.</DIV> ><DIV>I'm currently using -ew from the dative plural -ebo:</DIV> ><DIV>Gaulish: druids&nbsp;(nom s) --&gt; druidebo (dat pl)</DIV> ><DIV>Arvorec: drwyth (s) --&gt; drwydhew (pl)</DIV> ><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>What I'm wondering is how plausible is all this? Any better suggestions, >from Brythonic examples? Also, what is the origin of the welsh plural ending >-oedd, oh, and -od while were at it?</DIV> ><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>Thanks for any help (I'm really expecting Keith to answer this one >;o)&nbsp;)</DIV> ><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>Dan</DIV> ><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>-----------------------------------------------<BR>Ka yokonáu iti báyan: >"cas'alyá abhiyo".</DIV> ><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV> ><DIV>Ka tso iti mantabayan: "yama zaláyá<BR>alánekayam la s'alika, cas'alika; ka >yama<BR>yavarryekayan arannáam la vácika, labekayam <BR>vácika, ka ali >cas'alyeko vanotira."<BR>-----------------------------------------------<BR>Dan >Jones</DIV>
== Tom Pullman "Dochuala as borb nad légha." Sùgi òl yrregoon lo! Jèkeri yrrego! _____________________________________________________________ Visit to get a Web site with a personalized domain and Web-based email