Re: CHAT: Homo Sapiens (was: fiery spirits)

I knew I shouldn't have used this quote as an example of English lack of a
word corresponding to German 'Mensch', Swedish _människa_, Latin 'homo' or
Greek 'anthro:pos'     :-)

Despite my addding in the mail that sparked off this twist in the thread:
"(Yes, I know the best MSS have 'goodwill' (eudokias) in the genitive, not
the nominative - but I don't want to complicate the issue)."
subsequent comments have complicated the issue, so here goes...........
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On Friday, October 24, 2003, at 09:00 , Nik Taylor wrote:

> Ray Brown wrote:
>> But also the suggestions 'human' or 'persons' doesn't work too well
>> either:
>>   "...
>> goodwill toward humans", ".....goodwill toward persons".  Both IMO sound
>> unnatural.
>
> I've seen "goodwill toward all", which sounds perfectly natural to me.
But adds an extra meaning not in the Greek, namely: pa:si (to all).  It
may be argued that 'all' is implied; but it ain't there in the original.

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On Friday, October 24, 2003, at 09:28 , Steg Belsky wrote:

[snip]
>
> Can anyone explain to me why all of those sound awkward to me without
> an |s| at the end of |toward|?  i.e., "towards"?
>
In modern Brit English it is (always) "towards"; but I was quoting the KJV
which ain't written in modern Brit English. The Americans, I believe,
still (largely) retain the earlier 'toward'.

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On Friday, October 24, 2003, at 09:32 , Peter Bleackley wrote:

[snip]
> In Catholic liturgical adaptation (the Gloria, said after the penitential
> rite at Mass on Sundays and feast days outside Lent and Advent)-
>
> "Glory to God in the Highest, and peace to His people on Earth".
Yes, and the Latin version has:
"Gloria in excelsis Deo, et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis".

The Latin may be considered to have expanded the Greek word 'eudokias'
somewhat with "bonae voluntatis" but IMHO those responsible for the English
version have gone too far in the opposite direction by translating it
simply
as "His"!

However, "people" might be a reasonable translation of 'hominibus'
(Gr. anthro:pois)in this context.

> Of course, Catholics to not use the KJV in liturgical use (usually the
> Jerusalem Bible, sometimes the old RSV).
Yep - in the days when the KJV held universal sway among Protestants, we
Catholics used the Douai-Reims version which has:
"Glory to God in the highest: and on earth peace to men of good will."

The Jerusalem Bible BTW has:
"Glory to God in the highest heaven, and peace to men who enjoy his favour.
"
[Thinks: what's happened to "on earth"?]

I don't have a copy of the RSV to hand; but neither it nor the Jerusalem
Bible translation is used in the liturgical version of the Gloria.

The Greek has (without accents - 'cause they get mangled in transmission):
Doksa en hypsistois       Theo:i,
Glory in highest [places] to-God,
NOM.S.   DAT.PL.          DAT.S.

kai epi ge:s   eire:ne:  en     anthro:pois eudokia:s
and on  earth  peace    among   people      of-approval.
         GEN.S. NOM.S            DAT.PL.     GEN.S.

Greek 'eudokia' means: approval, acceptance, satisfaction, good will,
favor.  In some MSS it is given in the nominative, hence the KJV
translation. But the general opinion (not just among Catholics) is that
the reading 'eudokia:s' (genitive) is more likely to be the original one.

The word is often used in the scriptures to denote _God's_ satisfaction or
acceptance of people. Hence the JB translation: "....to men who enjoy his
favour."

One point in the Greek that I've not seen mentioned is the possible
parallelism
between 'en hypsistois' and 'en anthro:pois'.  The former is usually taken
to
mean "in highest places" but, it could mean "among highest beings", i.e.
among
the heavenly hosts in contrast to 'en anthro:pois' "among humans".

Oh, the difficulties of translation - traduttore traditore.

Ray
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