Re: OT: Of Angles and Saxons

On Saturday, December 11, 2004, at 08:22 , Sally Caves wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andreas Johansson" <andjo@...>
> To: <CONLANG@...>
> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 11:27 AM
> Subject: OT: Of Angles and Saxons
>
>
>> I recently ran across the claim that no Anglo-Saxons called themselves
>> 'Saxons'
>> before the Conquest - that is was strictly an exonym - but all considered
>> themselves Angles/English. The names of kingdoms and regions containing
>> "Sax" -
>> Wessex, Sussex, Essex, Middlesex - supposedly all postdate the Conquest,
>> and
>> were introduced by the Normans (leaving one to wonder what the kings of
>> Wessex
>> and so on called their kingdoms).
>
> Well exactly.
Yep - exactly - they called it Wessex    :)

>> I find this more than a little difficult to believe, but couldn't find
>> any
>> explicit denial in any book I've got easy access to. Anyone into these
>> matters
>> feel like commenting?
>>
>>                                               Andreas
>
> "Explicit denial" is found in OE textual confirmation. What about
> Wesseaxna
> rice in the Chronicles for the year 866?  Her feng Aethered Aethelbryhtes
> brothur to Wesseaxna rice.  "Here Aethered, Athelbryhtes brother,
> succeeded
> to the kingdom of the West Saxons."
[snip]

> There are entries, too, for the Suthseaxe, but I'm too hurried to look it
> up. Your source is totally mistaken.
Suthseaxe - my native 'kingdom'  :)
Yes, its name is most certainly pre-conquest.

Another obvious pointer to the pre-conquest use of the name is that Welsh
called the English "Saxons" way before the conquest and still call us
'Saxons' to the present day:
Sais (an Englishman) ~ pl. Saeson
Saesnes (an English woman) ~ pl. Saesnesau
Saesneg [noun] English [language]
Seisnig [adjective] English

'England' is,however, 'Lloegr', a more ancient name an one which, I
believe, was once given to the whole island, to show that the Saxons are
native to the land but invaders/ settlers    :)

Sally - or anyone else - do you know the origin of Lloeger?

Ray
===============================================
http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
ray.brown@freeuk.com
===============================================
Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason."      [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]

Replies