Re: laterals (was: Pharingials, /l/ vs. /r/ in Southeast Asia)

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 Benct Philip Jonsson <bpj@...> wrote:

> Actually Polish _sz, cz, rz/.z_ *are* retroflex,
> while _s' c' z'_ are alveopalatal.  The usual
> Slavistic terminology and notation is more than a bit
> confusing on this point.
  Do you have any demonstration? I hear Polish every day on my TV set, they
didn't sound retroflex one like in languages having true retroflex
sybillants (e.g. Mandarin Chinese).

  Probably we have a different terminology than yours. We call this
articulation as "coronal", but the retroflex sounds are formed futher back
on the palate. I don't think that this is confusing. What can be confusing
here is the merging of the coronal and the retroflex sybillant. They have
only one common characteristic feature: the resonating cavity is formed by
the lower surface of the tongue. This gives a bit similar sound but doesn't
equalize them.

> I don't know if the so-called 'hard shibilants' ("harte Zischlaute") of
> other Slavic languages are also retroflex.  One Czech correspondent
> actually described Czech _s^_ etc. as intermediate between the Polish
> sounds.
  I, as Slovak, do not know retroflex 'hard sybillants' ("tvrdé sykavky");
they articulated dorsally and not coronally, though. (This means that the
body of the tongue is almost in the same position but the apex bends
contrary.) But I don't understand how can be the Czech (or Slovak, they are
the same) <s^> an intermadiate of the Polish sounds <sz> and <s'>? If you
are right <sz> is retroflex and <s'> is alveopalatal. What kind of
articulation point can be between (i.e. in an intermediate position of) a
retroflex and an alveopalatal?

  For the auditive perception, maybe we can describe Czech <s^> and
intermediate between the Polish sounds, but this is not a statement about
their articulation.