Re: laterals (was: Pharingials, /l/ vs. /r/ in Southeast Asia)

Quoting Javier BF <uaxuctum@...>:

> >> Why having symbols for the alveolopalatal
> >> fricatives at all, is there a language where those
> >> contrast with palatalized [S] and [Z]?
> >
> >Polish, IIRC.
>
> No, I said with _palatalized_ [S] and [Z]; that
> is, a contrast between [s\] and [S_j] and between
> [z\] and [Z_j], so as to justify having [s\] and
> [z\] as individual symbols. In all the languages
> I'm aware of, [s\] and [z\] do not contrast with
> [S_j] and [Z_j].
I thought Polish did that.

> >A stop sans complete closure ought to be impossible. Are you saying a stop
> >with lateral release is a stop that's simultaneously released centrally
> and
> >laterally? Besides that sounding pretty hard to pull off, it probably
> could
> >use some terminological reform, if so.
>
> Not simultaneously, but sequentially. A central
> stop with a lateral release is a double articulation.
> The same for a central stop with a nasal release,
> which is different from a nasal stop proper:
> [d_n] =/= [n]; similarly [d_l] =/= [K_r] (*).
But if you do it sequentially, you'd only get either lateral or central
plosion. Or?

> >Additionally, you were denying that [tK] was a true lateral affricate.
> Since
> >at least what I understand it to mean has central closure thru-out, I
> still
> >don't understand why.
>
> I meant a _literal_ rendition of [tK]. [t] is a
> central sound, not a lateral, thus in a sequence
> [t]+[K] you not only vary the degree of closure
> but also change from central to lateral, a change
> that cannot occur in the middle of a true
> affricate, just like changes in voicing or in
> place of articulation cannot occur in the middle
> of a true affricate.
That implies a degree of phonetic precision not usually aimed for in IPA
representations. The 't' in [ts] and [tS] doesn't indicate exactly the same
sound either. Reading [tK] as an affricate must surely be the default
interpretation.

BTW, the extended IPA for disordered speech provides ways to indicate unitary
fricatives with voicing changes half-way thru. Surely the same must be
possible with the fricative part of a affricate, or indeed any non-occlusive?

                                                      Andreas

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