Re: New Brithenig words, part Deux.

On Sat, 2 Jun 2001, andrew <hobbit@...> wrote :

>> I shouldn't worry about this, as I said, this degree of palatalisation is
>> found in SE Brittany, which is the Brittonic dialect most in contact with
>> Romance. Interestingly, it also has final stress as does Brithenig.
> Well, I'm leaving that feature as is for the moment.  I should go find
> out how such dialects treated palatalisation in orthography.
I'm not entirely sure. There's a standard Breton orthography (well actually
there are three standards) that is supposed to include all the dialects,
but Bro Gwenned is just too idiosyncratic to really fit, so some people
still use a local spelling. If you go to

http://www.kevarker.org

and go to their forums, you should find a character who posts as "Loig ar
Gwenedour" who AFAIK is a native speaker and advocate of this dialect. He'll
probably be willing to help.

> Brithenig: ffon'han.
> NC -> Nh when stressed, else -> NN, except when final.
> Oh, that's what you're said above.  Yes, Brithenig in this detail
> imitates Welsh.
Yes, once you allow for the fact that Brithenig retained final stress.

>> I can reel off a string of examples if you're interested.
> Definitely interested.  Reel off, reel off!
OK, but not this minute. I'll start a thread called "Latin loans in Welsh".
Apart from anything else they're useful as examples of sound change. The
great advantage of the Latin loans is that we know pretty well what the
original forms were, whereas with British words all we have is starred forms.

>>> If you want to know the origins of
>>> Brithenig find a copy of _Celtic: A Comparative Study_, by DB Gregor and
>>> turn to page 52, footnote 11.  I think that is the page that contains
>>> the text that is the germ of Brithenig.
Thanks for taking the trouble to quote it all for us. I would guess that
Gregor's sourch was probably K. Jackson's "Language and History in Early
Britain" (LHEB), especially his chapter on British Latin. I'd love to
know what the likes of Ray would make of this material, until very recently
it's been overlooked by Romance linguists I believe.

> _gwir_ (true) from _verus_
Nope, this is one of those near misses where the Welsh word is from the
Celtic version of the same root as the Latin word. Latin kept IE /e:/
whereas in Celtic it changed to /i:/. If /we:rus/ had been borrowed it
would have given something in W. like <gwyr> /gu:Ir/ << /gwu:Ir/
You have "gwer" in Brithenig, possibly that should be something more like
gwuir or guir?

> (e.g. _destruo_ wsa pronounced _destruwo_,
> whence Welsh _distrywio_ 'to destroy',
The final -io here is a Welsh verbal noun/infinitive ending, probably a
late addition to the noun "distryw" distruction (and so nothing to do with
the -o in Latin which fell off). You can make almost any English word into
a Welsh verb by sticking -io on the end of it, some people deplore the
practise.
(e.g. "Dwi wedi conlangio heddiw" - I've been conlanging today :-) )

> _deus became _dewus_, W. _duw (god; cf. the Gaulish prefix _Devo-_
The /w/ was there all the time in IE and Celtic. Latin "deus" is from
an earlier /deiwos/. Welsh should really be <dwyw> /du:Iw/ or /du:jw/
which must have simplified to <duw> [dyw], now [dIw] with a central [I]
or [diw] in the South.

> It is significant
> too that L after A did not become U as in French (e.g. _palf_ from
> _palma; F. _paume_
This seems to happen in Breton, but is probably a much later development
e.g. W. allt (wooded slope); C. als (cliff); B. aod (coast).

> - andrew.
Keith

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