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Re: Genitives NPs as Relative Clauses

From:Michael Poxon <m.poxon@...>
Date:Sunday, November 18, 2001, 13:45
Welsh also uses similar constructions: "Mae annwyd arnaf" (there-is-a cold
on-me) for "I have a cold" and uses possessives similarly to denote personal
objects of verbs: "Rydw i'n ei gweld" (I am her seeing) for "I see her". And
don't you just love conjugated prepositions? Omeina has lots of those!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Barr" <dbarr@...>
To: <CONLANG@...>
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 1:19 AM
Subject: Re: Genitives NPs as Relative Clauses

> Keith Gaughan scripsit: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > In my (English) idiolect, it's not uncommon for me to use genitive > > constructions > > in the place of relative clauses. Example: > > > > My idiolect: ...of my seeing... > > 'Normal English': ...that I see... > > > > It's not something I always use, and I can't predict when I use it but I > do. I > > think there's parallel idioms in Irish, but I can't think of any like it > off > > the top of my head. > > Keith, this is definitely a calque from Irish (i.e. Gaeilge) to Irish > English - "da kannst du Gift d'rauf nehmen" as Christophe said - Scottish > Gaelic does exactly the same thing. > > "Fear a gaoil" means "the man she loves" but actually translates as "the
> of her love": "fear" "man," "a" "her" (doesn't lenite the next word, which > is why I chose it, to keep things simple) "gaoil" "of love," genitive of > "gaol" "love." > > "Fear a faicinn" "the man of her seeing" does sound a little odd - you'd > normally say "am fear a chunnaic i" "the man that she saw" *or* "the man > that saw her" (without an adverb in there you can't distinguish them) - I > think it's more to do with, um... states? Terminology is breaking down
> what I mean is that "... that she saw" or "... that saw her" is a single > definite action, "that she loves" is sort of ongoing, and internal. Dunno. > > Scottish Gaelic at least - and I would assume Irish - is in general much > more noun-oriented than verb-oriented; many many many idioms involve
> prepositions - e.g. "tha cóig doilearan/miosan agam air," literally "there > are five dollars/months at me on him," less literally "I have five > dollars/months on him," idiomatically "he owes me five dollars" or "I am > five months older than he is," respectively. > > Verbs don't have infinitives *per se*, they have "verbal nouns" - which
> gender and decline like nouns, how frightening is *that*? :) To say
> of what they call "conjugated prepositions"... > > Doug >