Re: double negatives (was "bad French")

On Fri, 13 Oct 2000, Yoon Ha Lee wrote:

> I want to go to the dance.
>
> means something different to me than
>
> I don't want to not go to the dance.
>
> I use the first (well--I don't go to dances, period, but by way of
> example...) when my reasons are positive (I'm going to have fun, I'll
> meet friends) and the second when my reasons are negative (if I don't go
> I'll be left out).
>
> I don't know if I'm making any sense, but that's how I use the double
> negative.
That's not a double negative as I see it. In "I don't want to not go
the dance" the first negation (in "don't") negates "want", and the
second one negates "go to the dance". I don't see what a pedant would
have against it, except that he would perhaps demand "I don't want
not to go to the dance" (which is what I typed when I first typed
this).

A real double negative, which pedants *would* object to, is for
instance "I didn't see nothing", which obviously doesn't mean "I saw
something" but rather "I saw nothing" or "I didn't see anything".

> And OC I rather like the ne...pas, ne...jamais, ne...rien, etc.
> constructions in French.
AFMCL: Valdyan usually negates the verb if anything else in the
sentence is negated.

Examples:

  muz     mycha     na  chalat
  cat-nom mouse-acc NEG see-PRS-3s

"The cat doesn't see the mouse"

This is unmarked; _na_ is the negation for finite verbs and the
"stand-in" temporal adverbs _hyn_ (future) and _echain_ (past).

With emphasis on the mouse, it becomes

  muz     ni  mycha     na  chalat
  cat-nom NEG mouse-acc NEG see-PRS-3s

"The cat doesn't see the MOUSE, what the cat sees is not the mouse"

Here, the object is negated with _ni_ and the verb retains _na_.

With emphasis on the cat:

  ni  muz     mycha     na  chalat
  NEG cat-nom mouse-acc NEG see-PRS-3s

"The CAT doesn't see the mouse, it is not the cat who sees the mouse"

When the object is negated, some dialects (especially in the south
and south-east) don't negate the verb:

  muz     ni  mycha     chalat
  cat-nom NEG mouse-acc see-PRS-3s

"What the cat sees is not the mouse"

The argument is that the cat does obviously see something, only it's
not the mouse.

See my web page for more:

http://www.valdyas.org/irina/valdyas/taal/grammar/negations.html
http://www.valdyas.org/irina/valdyas/taal/grammar/to_the_market.html

   Irina

--
           Varsinen an laynynay, saraz no arlet rastynay.
irina@valdyas.org (myself)     http://www.valdyas.org/irina/valdyas