Re: Etymology of _insula_ (was Re: Thoughts on Word building)

Mark J. Reed wrote:
> On 12/8/05, *Rob Haden* <magwich78@yahoo.com
> <mailto:magwich78@...>> wrote:
>
>     On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 16:16:15 +0000, R A Brown
>     <ray@CAROLANDRAY.PLUS.COM <mailto:ray@...>>
>     wrote:
>
>      >I have seen them related to PIE root for "swim" also, but your
>     etymology
>      >is easier as regards the sound changes, I think.
>
>     Plus, the semantics are way off -- how can one derive 'nose' from 'swim'
>     (or vice-versa)?
>
>
> Erm - I think he meant  that the words for "island" were related to
> "swim" (instead of "nose"), not that "nose" was related to "swim"
> (instead of "island"). :)
Correct - or more exactly that I have seen it claimed that the Greek
words for 'island' are derived the PIE root "swim". Support for this is
said to be the frequent stories among the Greeks of floating (i.e.
swimming) islands. But I am not convinced by this.

I did not intend to suggest any connexion between noses & swimming.
===================================

Rob Haden wrote:
 > On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 16:16:15 +0000, R A Brown <ray@...>
 > wrote:
[snip]
 >
 >>But the meaning is against it, I think. The meaning 'nose' had long been
 >>forgotten by the Greeks (whose word for 'nose' was _rhis_ (gen:
 >>_rhinos_)). I suspect it [nasus] is from a Italian dialect form.
 >
 >
 > It could be.  Or, the original Greek form was *na:ssos -- see below.

{slaps head!} Of course - blush! i feel so ashamed at not noticing that.

[snip]
 >
 > There's another slight problem, actually.  Intervocalic */s/ becomes /0/
 > (via */h/) before Greek.

Of course it does. Yep, a Proto-Greek *na:sos would have give /na:os/
(Doric), /nE:os/ (Ionic) and /neO:s/ (Attic).

 >So, either the original Greek word was *na:ssos,
 > or */s/ became */h/ before */x/ (= 'h2') was lost.

I would think it was *na:ssos, which would also, of course, account for
the Latin _na:sus_

[snip]

 >
 >>Breton: froan
 >>Welsh: ffroen
 >>Gaelic & Irish: sròn  (sro`n)
 >>
 >>These are apparently derived from a Proto-Celtic *srogna-
 >>The Breton and welsh words mean 'nostril' rather than nose. the normal
 >>welsh word for 'nose' is _trwyn_ (Cornish _trein_), and the Breton is
 >>_fri_.
 >>
 >>--
 >>Ray
 >
 >
 > It looks rather tempting to try to link the Celtic words for 'nose' with
 > Greek _rhî:s_, _rhinós_ (if from something like *srign-), but it's
probably
 > too good to be true.

It does, doesn't it?   :)

I am fairly certain that some have claimed this, but MacBain does not
suggest this nor quote any authorities. The vowels would take some
explaining, methinks.

However, he does connect the Celtic *srogn- with Greek _rhenkein_/
_rhenkhein_ "to snore", which I suppose is possible if we have
metathesis of -ghn- ~ ngh-

--
Ray
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--
Ray
==================================
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http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
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