Kemr + more on ConLand names in translation (was: RE: écagne, [...])

Padraic [I can't livagify it, coz I don't know how to pronounce it!]:
> On Sat, 1 Apr 2000, And Rosta wrote:
>
> >Gzranq Gkhawn (John Cowan):
> >
> >What is the ungarbled version, and why is it a riddle?
>
> The ungarbled version is has "g or y" in place of "-gry". I
> think the riddle was "There are three words in the English
> language that end in g or y; one is 'hungry' the other is
> 'angry', and if you're listening I've told you the third.
> What is it?"  Of course, in normal speech, "g or y" tends
> to get pronounced homophonously with "G-R-Y" - the names
> of the three letters. Hence the confusion of the original
> riddle (the answer of which, of course, is "listening") and
> what makes it impossible for anyone who doesn't know how to
> gry. :)
I don't understand at all, but your explanation at least convinces
me that I don't want to know more!

> >> > Translations of these names into other natlangs and conlangs would be
> >> > delightedly received by me...
> >>
> >> In Brithenig, they are Lleig and Yscyngr /Is'kiNgIr/, I think.
> >
> >O wow! Can you run through the history of these for me?
>
> Livagia:
> Initial l > ll; agia > eig (actually -aCj > -eiC); apparently
> medial -v- disappeared; final -a disappears. The changes would
> have taken place over centuries. I wonder if the -g should be
> -g'. Of course, I never got any of that Mistarista straight,
> and undoubtedly would speak horrible Brithenig if ever I tried.
What's -g'? A palatal? And how did the initial /i/ get lost?

> Scungry:
Actually, the Brithenig would be from _Scungria_. But if _Cambria_
gives _Kemr_ then the outcome would be the same.

> Initial sc- > ysc- (actually init. sC > ysC); u: > y;
Why would it originally have been /u:/ rather than /u/?

> ng is N;
> final vowel drops off; -r is syllabic [-@r] or [-er] depending
> on dialect, education, etc.
>
> >I wonder what _Kemr_ is in Livagian. Is _Kemr_ just the normal development
> >of _Cambria_?
>
> Yes.
>
> >Do other European lgs call _Kemr_ by their local reflex of _Cambria_?
>
> That's a good question. The Kernow call it Pays Comror (a
> reflex of borrowed Kemr); not exactly a reflex of "Cambria",
> which would be Cammrea. Dan can tell us what it's called in
> Arvorec! It's probably called "Wales" in Saxon.
>
> >Because of the intrinsically dead character of Livagian, no
> >sound changes would have supervened upon the earliest form of the word
> >in the language, hence _Gkhambrya_, or conceivably _Kambrya_ (<k> = [k']).
> >OTOH, if Kemr and Cambria are felt to be fundamentally different entities,
> >so that Kemr is not just modern Cambria, then, given that Lyaco-British
>
> Cambria is just the Proper Latin for Kemr, as in "X Rex Cambriarum"
> style of thing.
>
> >contacts would have existed during the Romano-British period, though
> >dying out during the Dark Ages, the name for Kemr would probably reflect
> >the form of the Brithenig name at the time either when Kemr first became
> >a nation, if this was not too far into the Dark Ages, or else during the
> >late Middle Ages when the sea traffic out of Europe was beginning and
> >Lyaco-European contacts were resuming.
>
> I don't think anyone's done any work on early midieval Brithenig.
If I understand correctly, during the Roman occupation, _Cambria_ denotes
roughly what we call Wales, and it was an area relatively resistant to
romanization. (Did it also include Cumbria/Cumberland? And Lancashire?)
Then after the Anglosaxon settlement the name was generalized to the
Romanobritish West of Britain. Or perhaps not so much generalized as
reapplied.

I still can't work out whether there is a perceived continuity between
Cambria and Kemr, or whether it is merely etymological. I'll provisionally
assume that the Livagians call Kemr _Gkhambrya_, i.e. 'Cambria'.

But what do other European lgs do? Is _Galles_ from _gaul_/_gallia_, or is it
from _wales_, with w > gw > g? If the former, then one might suppose that
Kemr is named with some form of 'gaul' word rather than with a 'cymru'/
'cambria' word. In that case, the Livagian name might be something like
_Galds_, assuming that the same perceptions motivated the Livagian onomastic
as motivated the romance ones.

Fascinating!

--And.