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Re: Carthangyz

From:Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder@...>
Date:Wednesday, July 6, 2005, 17:45
It's been some time ago I was working on Carthangyz, so I'm a bit out of
Turcology now. But I think to remember that Turkic b>m occurs when the
word contains another nasal. XX: ben > men (I), bing > ming (1000).

Maybe a few nice names for your Turks would be "Qyptar", or "Tarqyp", from
Tartar x Qypchaq, or "Tarquman" < Tartar + Quman, or "Chaquman", "Qypman"
etc etc ;-) Or just call them and their language after the area they live.

I couldn't open your link, I think I only got the Narod.Ru Jandex page,
but nothing about P20. Or is my Cyrillic insufficient?


On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:00:12 +0300, Isaac Penzev <isaacp@...> wrote:

>Ingmar Roerdinkholder jazdy: > > >> Yeah, I know about that, remember last year we mailed about Slavo- >> Turcologics, > >Exactly! After that I tried several other projects, but was unsatisfied
>the results and returned to P20. NB: it undergoes serious revision! > >> I sent you some information about my own variety "Carthangyz", > >Yes, now I understood it was YOU :) > >> a Turkic language spoken by Orthodox Christians on the Black Sea island >> Carthangyzia, related to Crimean Osman, Crimean Tartar and Gauguz. >> I'm curious wether you used some of it for your Kuman Tyli. > >It is not called Kuman Tyli any more, because I decided not to tie it to >actual Cuman as found in Codex Cumanicus. I'm in search for a better name. >I'm sure the people who speak the language, call themselves "Kypchaklar", >but to call the language merely "Kypchak" seems too misleading. > >Gagauz and Karai are the main paterns to watch the Slavic influence, but >since the language is mostly Qypchaq, not Oghuz, it must be closer to
>Karachay-Malkar, to lesser extent to Noghay, Qirim Tatar, Qazan Tatar, >Karakalpak. Those are my main sources. > >> Carthangyz has two main dialects: the major, Northern one around the >> capital, and the Southern one which is much closer to Turkish.
>> orthography is designed in a way that both pronunciations are possible. >> E.g. ë = North [jE], South [e]; ö = N [jO], South [2]; ü = N [ju], S
>> j = N [Z], S [j] etc. Northern Carthangyz phonology is influenced a lot
>> Slavonic languages like Russian, Ukrainian, and Bulgarian, > >The same is true about P20. Common Turkic *ö = [jO]/[;O], *ü = [ju]/[;u] >like in your N.C. plus other phonological niceties, like "dissimilative >yaism": >CT *ä normally > e [jE]/[E], but > ä [j&]/[&] in open syllables before >syllables containing /i/ and occasionally /e/, e.g. _jurek_ [z\u"rEk] >"heart" :: _jurägi_ [z\ur;&"g;i] "his heart", _kel_ [k;El;] "come!" :: >_käle_ [k;&"l;E] "while coming". > >I don't know if your comp reads Cyrillics, so I used transliteration. >Normally it must be written with Russian alphabet. > >> and gave up >> vowel harmony altogether, unlike Southern pronunciaton. > >Nah, v.h. is well alive in P20, both velar and labial; the latter only for >high vowels. > >> as you will have noticed: <ben> with <b-> like in Turkish, the other
>> with <m-> like all other Turkic languages > >I'm still hezitant about certain roots and suffixes. Clearly initial b- is >often > m- like in other Qypchaq natlangs, but I cannot find criteria to >distinguish between Qypchaq and Oghuz elements in lgs. Thus, Series II >suffixes 1pl -ibiz and 2pl -igiz seem Q. , while -imiz and -ingiz seem
>but Q.-Noghay subgroup obviously uses nazal variants! > >No time for examples, but they are obvious. See a worksheet on P20 (a bit >obsolete) here: > > >-- Yitz >=========================================================================


Isaac Penzev <isaacp@...>