|From:||Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder@...>|
|Date:||Wednesday, July 6, 2005, 17:45|
It's been some time ago I was working on Carthangyz, so I'm a bit out of
Turcology now. But I think to remember that Turkic b>m occurs when the
word contains another nasal. XX: ben > men (I), bing > ming (1000).
Maybe a few nice names for your Turks would be "Qyptar", or "Tarqyp", from
Tartar x Qypchaq, or "Tarquman" < Tartar + Quman, or "Chaquman", "Qypman"
etc etc ;-) Or just call them and their language after the area they live.
I couldn't open your link, I think I only got the Narod.Ru Jandex page,
but nothing about P20. Or is my Cyrillic insufficient?
On Wed, 6 Jul 2005 20:00:12 +0300, Isaac Penzev <isaacp@...> wrote:
>Ingmar Roerdinkholder jazdy:
>> Yeah, I know about that, remember last year we mailed about Slavo-
>Exactly! After that I tried several other projects, but was unsatisfiedwith
>the results and returned to P20. NB: it undergoes serious revision!
>> I sent you some information about my own variety "Carthangyz",
>Yes, now I understood it was YOU :)
>> a Turkic language spoken by Orthodox Christians on the Black Sea island
>> Carthangyzia, related to Crimean Osman, Crimean Tartar and Gauguz.
>> I'm curious wether you used some of it for your Kuman Tyli.
>It is not called Kuman Tyli any more, because I decided not to tie it to
>actual Cuman as found in Codex Cumanicus. I'm in search for a better name.
>I'm sure the people who speak the language, call themselves "Kypchaklar",
>but to call the language merely "Kypchak" seems too misleading.
>Gagauz and Karai are the main paterns to watch the Slavic influence, but
>since the language is mostly Qypchaq, not Oghuz, it must be closer toKumyk,
>Karachay-Malkar, to lesser extent to Noghay, Qirim Tatar, Qazan Tatar,
>Karakalpak. Those are my main sources.
>> Carthangyz has two main dialects: the major, Northern one around the
>> capital, and the Southern one which is much closer to Turkish.Carthangyz
>> orthography is designed in a way that both pronunciations are possible.
>> E.g. ë = North [jE], South [e]; ö = N [jO], South ; ü = N [ju], S[y],
>> j = N [Z], S [j] etc. Northern Carthangyz phonology is influenced a lotby
>> Slavonic languages like Russian, Ukrainian, and Bulgarian,
>The same is true about P20. Common Turkic *ö = [jO]/[;O], *ü = [ju]/[;u]
>like in your N.C. plus other phonological niceties, like "dissimilative
>CT *ä normally > e [jE]/[E], but > ä [j&]/[&] in open syllables before
>syllables containing /i/ and occasionally /e/, e.g. _jurek_ [z\u"rEk]
>"heart" :: _jurägi_ [z\ur;&"g;i] "his heart", _kel_ [k;El;] "come!" ::
>_käle_ [k;&"l;E] "while coming".
>I don't know if your comp reads Cyrillics, so I used transliteration.
>Normally it must be written with Russian alphabet.
>> and gave up
>> vowel harmony altogether, unlike Southern pronunciaton.
>Nah, v.h. is well alive in P20, both velar and labial; the latter only for
>> as you will have noticed: <ben> with <b-> like in Turkish, the othercases
>> with <m-> like all other Turkic languages
>I'm still hezitant about certain roots and suffixes. Clearly initial b- is
>often > m- like in other Qypchaq natlangs, but I cannot find criteria to
>distinguish between Qypchaq and Oghuz elements in lgs. Thus, Series II
>suffixes 1pl -ibiz and 2pl -igiz seem Q. , while -imiz and -ingiz seemOg.,
>but Q.-Noghay subgroup obviously uses nazal variants!
>No time for examples, but they are obvious. See a worksheet on P20 (a bit