Re: Colloquial German, experiencers and the construct state

From what you wrote, I think German usage is different from Dutch.

"Jan die heeft een nieuwe fiets"  does not mean
"Concerning Jan, he's got a new bike" but simply
"Jan has got a new bike".

<Die> no stress, nor is there a pause after <Jan>.

We can say "Jan, díe heeft een nieuwe fiets", <die> stressed, then it is
"Speaking of John, he's got a new bike".

Maybe the colloquial Dutch examples, which are seldom written but soken
all the time, are related somehow to the usage in the Creole languages of
our (former) Dutch colonies, like

Sranan Tongo (Suriname):

"A boi de komoto en oso"
the boy DE come out his house
The boy is coming out of his house

Coll Dutch
"De jongen die komt uit z'n huis"
Stand Dutch
"De jongen komt uit zijn huis"


Papiamento (Dutch Antilles: Aruba/Curaçao/Bonaire)

"E mohen ta bai kas"
the woman TA go house
The woman is going home

C Dutch
"De vrouw die gaat naar huis"
S Dutch
"De vrouw gaat naar huis"

Groetjes

Ingmar

(btw: <betreft> with single f ;-})



On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 02:51:55 +0200, Henrik Theiling <theiling@...>
wrote:

>Hi!
>
>Ingmar Roerdinkholder <ingmar.roerdinkholder@...> writes:
>> More colloquial Dutch:
>>
>> Jan DIE heeft een nieuwe fiets
>> "John THAT has a new bike" = John has got a new bike
>>...
>
>Same, but with comma in German.  Feels like an emphasised
>topicalisation to me (and the pattern is very similar to French):
>
>   Jan, der hat ein neues Fahrrad.
> = Was Jan angeht, der hat ein neues Fahrrad.
>
>   Wat Jan betrefft, hij heeft een nieuwe fiets.
>
>   Concerning Jan, he has a new bike.
>
>The explicit topicalisation with 'was ... angeht' is overly formal,
>I'd say.  It's reserved to translating Japanese sentences and to
>writing grammars of German only. :-)  The repetition of the
>corresponding constituent does the same job more naturally.
>
>(Anyway, there are situations where you cannot use this, e.g.
>if the topic is not an argument or adjunct of the verb, e.g.
>the standard Japanese example:
>
>   Sakana-wa tai-ga          ii.
>   fish-TOP  red_snapper-NOM is_good.
>
>I think this'd need 'Was Fisch angeht, ist Schnappfisch gut'.
>Colloquially, maybe: 'Ja, Fisch -- da ist Schnappfisch gut'. :-))
>
>> Ons huis DAT moet een nieuw dak hebben
>
>   Unser Haus, das muß ein neues Dach haben.
> = Was unser Haus angeht, das muß ein neues Dach haben.
>
>   Wat ons huis betrefft, dat moet een nieuw dak hebben.
>
>   Concerning our house, it needs a new roof.
>
>>...
>> In spoken Dutch, <die> (common gender+plural) and <dat> (neutrum)
>> are virtually always used, although they're omitted in Standard Dutch.
>>
>> Do you have that in Coll. German, Middle English and/or Afrikaans, too?
>
>It's both written and spoken German, definitely not restricted to
>spoken, and definitely not used virtually always, but only for an
>emphasised topicalisation.  At least I'd say so.
>
>Concerning Afrikaans :-) -- I have no idea.
>
>**Henrik
>=========================================================================