Re: Two questions about Esperanto

Philippe wrote: "I'm dubious about such descriptions as "place two fingers
lightly across your mouth and say 'they' very carefully".

To me, "place two fingers lightly across your mouth and say 'they' very
carefully" is completely meaningless. It might as well be in the language
I'm trying to learn :P

"The best way to describe a phoneme, IMO (and if you have no sound file at
hand), is to say, "like the sound '_' in the word '_' in natlang '_'.

No, no, no, no. The best way to describe a phoneme is by using descriptions
like voiceless velar fricative (for your example, Russian <x>). And sound
files don't necessarily help. I listened to the sound files at Wikipedia of
epiglottal consonants and still have no idea how to pronounce them (they'd
be a nice addition to a conlang tho [I like to be able to pronounce my
languages] - if someone could enlighten me... :P).

"Anyway, I always saw it written this way in grammars for foreign languages.

Well, that's because either the author doesn't know IPA or if he/she does,
lest confusing IPA-illiterate people (nearly everyone), it isn't used :( I
wish we learned IPA in school...

"To explain what is the Russian phoneme noted "x", you just say "it's the
same as "j" in Spanish "navaja", or "ch" in German "Bach". Nearly any people
interested in linguistics will understand this, provided it's not a really
exotic language, of course.

Spanish <j> is pronounced differently in different places - see Marcos's
post. And such descriptions can be made more succint and meaningful with
'voiceless velar fricative' (or 'IPA [x]'), anyway. If you're a
non-linguist, at least you learn some neat new vocabulary ;);)

"And even if some purists will protest "no, it
is not exactly the same sound", well anyway, it will be a good approximation
to start with."

But say a person who speaks one Spanish dialect pronounces the <x> not as it
should be (X-Sampa [x]), but as how he/she *thinks* it should be
pronounced - as in the Spanish dialect they speak. And then when he/she uses
the phoneme he/she thinks is the right one, and mixes it up with another
phoneme, he/she runs into problems with native speakers misunderstanding
him/her, and the confusion could've been prevented by learning some new
vocabulary... I know this sort of scenario is pretty unlikely, but still...

Cheers,

T

"The man who removes a mountain begins by carrying away small stones."
--Chinese proverb

"I tried so hard and got so far,
But in the end,
It doesn't even matter,
I had to fall,
To lose it all,
But in the end,
It doesn't even matter."
--In The End, Linkin Park, Hybrid Theory

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