Reflexive possessives & the like

On Fri, 26 May 2000, Vasiliy Chernov wrote:

> On Fri, 26 May 2000 01:52:09 -0400, Muke Tever <alrivera@...>
> wrote:
> >"He1 told him2 the truth about him2's mother."
In Valdyan:

Nanie       le.arnien     lay   lei arlat
mother-loc him.self's-loc about him speak.truth-PRS-3s

"He-1 speaks truthfully to him-2 about his-1 mother"

Nanie      lien    lay   lei arlat
mother-loc his-loc about him speak.truth-PRS-3s

"He-1 speaks truthfully to him-2 about his-2 mother"

This only means that whatever the "he" man says about his own mother
or the "him" man's mother, as the case may be, is true (at least as
far as he-1 knows); if a specific truth (for instance an embarrassing
fact) is implied, it's like this:

Nanie      le.arnien      lay   arlea     lei laynat
mother-loc him.self's-loc about truth-acc him say-PRS-3s

"He-1 tells him-2 a/the truth about his-1 mother"

This is usually expressed without the "himself", however:

Nanie      lay   arlea     lei laynat
mother-loc about truth-acc him say-PRS-3s

"He-1 tells him-2 a/the truth about mother"

where it's supposed to be clear that the subject's mother is implied.

Nanie      lien    lay   arlea     lei laynat
mother-loc his-loc about truth-acc him say-PRS-3s

"He-1 tells him-2 a/the truth about his-2 mother"

where _lien_ is obligatory to make it clear that it's not the "he"
man's mother.

> (I suddenly realized while translating that situation in Russian is
> still more complex: in _On rasskazal jemu  pravdu o nem_, _o nem_ can
> actually be understood 'about him-3'! This is why I felt it was perhaps
> necessary to say _o nem samom_ 'about him-2-self'...)
This is also the case for Valdyan; any occurrence of "his-2" could
also be "his-3". Because, unlike Russian, Valdyan applies the "self"
to the subject, this can't be solved easily without naming the
different "him" men.

> (BTW, In Slavonic languages, unlike e. g. Romance, reflexives can refer
> to any person, which also applies to reflexive possesives, cf.:
> Ja    rasskazal jemu  pravdu    o     svojej  materi
> 'I    told      him   the truth about my      mother';
> Ja    rasskazal jemu  pravdu    o     sebe
> 'I    told      him   the truth about myself'.)
Nanie      arnien     lay   arlea     lei laynan
mother-loc self's-loc about truth-acc him say-PRS-1s

"I tell him the truth about my mother"

_arne_ makes the mother the subject's own; because "I" am the subject,
it's my mother.

Nanie      lien    lay   arlea     lei laynan
mother-loc his-loc about truth-acc him say-PRS-1s

"I tell him the truth about his mother"

which, again, doesn't specify whether I tell John about John's
mother, or about Paul's mother. It seems like it can be disambiguated
like this:

* Nanie      le.arnien      lay   arlea     lei laynan
  mother-loc him.self's-loc about truth-acc him say-PRS-1s

"I tell him the truth about his (own) mother"

but this in fact ungrammatical, because _learne_ can only refer to
the subject. It can only be disambiguated by specifying at least the
mother's son.

   Irina

--
           Varsinen an laynynay, saraz no arlet rastynay.
irina@valdyas.org (myself) - http://valdyas.conlang.org (Valdyas)
          http://www.valdyas.org/irina/index.html (home)