Re: vietnamese

Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:

>On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 20:07:52 -0500,
># 1 <salut_vous_autre@...> wrote:
>
> > I recently read a vietnamese grammar (on the frensh wikipedia)
> > describing
> > how the language works using classes, methodes, "tool" words, and
>numerals
> > instead of the occidental way with articles, nouns, verbs, adverbs,
> > adjectives...
> >
> > I would like if someone could point me a website with a good list of
>these
> > classes and methods.
>
>"Classes" and "methods"?  I know those terms from object-oriented
>programming languages.  How does one meaningfully apply them to human
>languages, hm, well, "classes" could be nouns and "methods" verbs.
>But it is a strange terminology.
Yes these names are those used in programmation.

It's because, people first tried to explain the vietnamese grammar with the
occidental description, using verbs, nouns, and these things

but it made a grammar that lead the non-native speaker to consider that
vietnames were without any grammar or that the grammar were VERY complex

but after they try to describe the vietname using terms of programmation


I can try to translate a little of the frensh wikipedia but I will not place
the diacritics because I don't have all of them in my computer

so for the real words with diacritics it is at
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammaire_du_vietnamien
________

the language is divided in
- Classes
- methodes-
- "tool" word (like coordination conjonctions, tenses and imperative
markers)
- Numerals


CLASSES

classes have functions of articles, nouns, and pronouns

classes describe a logic group of properties -> that way, "xe" describe a
"vehicle with wheels"

these properties can be precized by a "child" class so a "vehicles with
wheels" can be:

- bicycle: xe dap
- automobiles: xe o-to
- buses: xe buyt


a class can contain methodes: chiec xe dap mau xanh = the green car

or can be instanced: chiec xe dap mau xanh cua Nga = the Nga's green bicycle
(Nga is a instance of feminine human)


CLASSES AS ARTICLES OR NOUNS

example of usage of classes as articles or nouns

- chiec: what is ownable in number
- xe: vehicles with wheels
- buyt: bus
- mot: a, an, 1

so:

- chiec xe: the vehicles with wheels -> "chiec" is an article, "xe" is a
noun
- xe buyt: the bus -> "xe" is an article, "buyt" is the noun
- mot chiec xe: a vehicles with wheels -> "mot chiec" is an article, "xe" is
the noun
- mot xe buyt: a bus -> "mot xe" is an article, "buyt" is the noun

that way, the word "xe" has two different grammatical functions

classes fit in one another starting with two basic classes wich are:

- cai: things without their own movement
- con: things or living being with their own movement (generaly, living
beings, boats, and knives (for cultural reasons))

"con" can apply to dogs (cho), cats (meo), birds (chim), humanoids (nguoi)

humanoids are:

con nguoi uc ua: the monkey, generally reduced to "nguoi uc ua"
con nguoi dan: the human being, generally reduced to "nguoi dan"

after, the class of an animal is divided in 3 sub-classes:

- females
- males
- childs

it is the same thing for "cai" class and for those inherit of it

cai ban: the table
ban giay: the plane surface in paper
giay chim: paper bird

the important concept is that, in that examplem "chim" inherits of the
properties of "giay", wich had inherited of "ban" 's properties, wich had
inherit of the properties of "cai"

never, the bird concept of bird "chim" contains the notion of "live", it is
only by classifying it with a word who inherits "obviously" from "cai" that
we know it is an object

In that example, the words "ban" and "giay" have successively the functions
of definite articles and nouns.

That's what lead to think that these concepts of articles and nouns are
inoperant for vietnamese


CLASSES AS PRONOUNS

there are no pronouns in vietnamese, they are generally replaced by classes

examples of personnal pronouns

- nguoi ong: the grand-father
- nguoi ba: the grand-mother
- nguoi bac: the elder paternal uncle
- nguoi co: the elder paternal aunt
- nguoi anh: the elder brother
- nguoi chi: the elder sister
- nguoi em: the little sister, the little brother

Suppose that a woman is talking to an older man than her to tell that she
gets back home and she asks if he've already ate

- Em di ve: I get back home
- Anh da an chua: did you already ate?

and he says that he goes out and ask her to hurry up

- Anh di ra: I go out
- Em di mau len di: hurry up

so, the class "em" for a younger person is used by the woman as "I" and by
the man as "you" and the opposite with "anh"

so classes acts like personnal pronouns but they aren't


"Toi" is often used as "I" in formal contexts but it so rarely used as "you"
that it often passes for a personnal pronoun but it's a mistake because it
is only that "toi" is a word relating to domesticity, it is polite to use it
for ourself but to use it for the people we are talking to is not polite


CLASSES AS SPECIFICATORS

the specificator class is placed before the specified class like in "giay
chim" (bird in paper)

We can add as much specificators as it's needed for the sense. In the
example "giay chim" it is obvious that "giay" inherits form "ban" and "cai"
so these are not used in the construction

so the specification link the specified class to a larger group of
properties

it is obligatory in cases of numerals on the specified class


CLASSES AS SUBJECTS

a class can be used a "subject", so possess methodes (wich can correspond to
adjectives, verbs ar adverbs in our system). A class with methodes can be
specified or not

explicit cases of specification:

- after usage of numerals
- indication of generality, example "nguoi co" in the sense of the aunt as a
category of person, but, in that case, the native locutor will tend to place
a numeral instead of only a specificator


explicit cases of non-specification are all the other cases


METHODES

generalities

methodes cover functions of adjectives, verbs, and adverbs

their working is similar to informatic's methodes

the working of wath is functionnaly an adjective or a verb is exacly the
same

there are no according or declinaisons


USAGE AS ADVERB

when used on an other methodes, the equivalent of the adverb "greatly" in
"I'm getting fun greatly" gives "toi cao choi"

- toi: classificator who possess methodes
- cao: methode about what is high
- choi: methode about play and fun

"coa" is used on "choi" between the class "toi" who possesses the methodes,
and the "active" methode "choi"

TOOL-WORDS

definition: tool-words are words who act on

- classes
- methodes
- construction of complex sentences

as each vietnamese words, these are used only when they are absolutely
needed


TOOL-WORDS ON METHODES

confirmation, infirmation

contrarly to what can be found in travel guide books, the words yes and no
don't have any equivalent in vietnamese

in fact:

the word "da" is an iterjection marking the respect of the speaker, and a
respect interjection doesn't necessary mean an agreed

the word "khong" is a tool-word applying to methodes and can't be used
without the methodes it goes with

the concepts of confirmation and infirmation are only found by the presence
or not of the tool-words aplying with the concerned methode

infirmation: infirmation tool-words are placed before the methode or
methodes they invalidate

exemple: "I don't get fun" is "toi khong choi"

-toi: classificator who possesses the methodes
-khong
-choi: methode of play and fun

"khong" invalidates the methode cao choi

invalidations tool-words: khong and chua


tense: these tool-words apply to methodes

coordination: these tool-word apply to groups "class and methode possessed
by a class"

exclamation: these tool-words apply to whole sentence

interjection: these tool-word can be employed alone or ponctuate speech


Empty words

the harder catégory of tool-word to understand for a non-native speaker

usages of empty words are:

- rhytmic balance of the sentence
- versification balance (versification being current in ordinary
conversations)
- introduction of emotionnal variations or perceptions (valorisation as
example)

these words don't have sense, don't have existence as themself, and are
constructed and placed in function of the sonorous context of the sentence

they can apply to classes or methodes


CONTEXT

in vietnamese, the context is ruled similarly to informatic variables: if a
variable is precised, it stay as that instead it is changed

so, if someone precise the tense or a classificator, it will persist and
don't need to be repeated
and if someone talks of a woman called Thu one time, it is after useless to
mention her name or her feminine nature instead talking of someone else




so, that's what can be found on the french wikipedia about vietnamese
grammar

that way to class the words doesn't exist in english? because if so, I would
like to find a more complete list of classes and methodes

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