On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:10:24 -0500, Sally Caves <scaves@...>
wrote:
>PART I. FOR CELTIC CONLANGERS:
>
>Have you based your conlang(s) wholly or partially on a Celtic language?
>If so, on which? or combined with which?
I don't really have any Celtic-based conlangs, but one (Rubaga) is
influenced by Irish. If that doesn't qualify ignore the answers in this
section.
>What is your name and what do you call your conlang(s)?
Jeff Jones; Rubaga
>When did you start it/them?
2 years ago
>Are you still working with it/them or have you abandoned it or them?
Serious work is on hold until I do more research.
>What Celtic features have you borrowed? What is the structure of your
>language? Be specific.
initial consonant mutations, probably "conjugated" prepositions, probably
verb-first syntax
>What innovations did you introduce? (new constructions, perhaps a new
>script, etc.)
none yet
> What features of Celtic languages (or a particular Celtic language)
> initially inspired or intrigued you? For example, Tolkien, as he
> described it in "Welsh and English" was impressed by the beauty of a
> Welsh inscription he saw on a building: Adeiladwyd 1887 ('built 1887').
> He loved words like wybren, so much more "mellifluous" than our borrowed
> word "sky." He was likewise enthralled by Finnish and Hebrew. So he
> deliberately set out to make his Elvish languages beautiful. Was this a
> draw for you as well in choosing Celtic as a model? (I understand that
> T's Elvish languages are not exclusively "Celtic." He has described
> them, however, as being "European-like.")
interesting phonetics and phonology (as described by self-instruction
books, which are notoriously unreliable, like the ones that say that Welsh
"ll" is pronounced like Spanish "ll") rather than "beauty"
>On the other hand, perhaps the Celtic structures, their VSO, their
>paraphrastics, their initial mutations, their spelling conventions, their
>general strangeness caught your fancy, not necessarily their "beauty" or
>"romance." Comment?
>How many of you are also scholars of Celtic languages? Scholars of other
>languages?
0
>How were you introduced to them?
Introduced to whom? Oh, you mean Celtic languages?
>PART II: INSPIRATION BY TOLKIEN (tangential to the questions on
> inspiration by Celtic languages):
>
> How many of you were inspired to invent a language because of your
> exposure to Tolkien?
none of me
>How many of you based your conlang on one of Tolkien's languages, or your
>conculture in Middle Earth?
0
> How many of you have a constructed world, and, if so, does it include
> some of the races we associate with Celtic or Scandinavian mythology?
> (Elves, Dwarves, medieval societies of humans, Faeries or Fays?
> Selkies? Wizards?)
I haven't really constructed a world yet, although Rubaga is supposed to
have one. I expect to have some strange people in it if I ever do it, but
nothing specifically from standard mythology.
> How many of you were inspired to examine Welsh, Hebrew, or Finnish
> because of your examination of Tolkien?
0
> How many of you were inspired to invent a conlang or a conculture
> because of some influence OTHER than Tolkien?
at least 1 of me
> How many of you were inspired to invent a language because you engage
> in Roll-Playing Games?
0
Uh ... isn't it *Role*-Playing Games? or do you mean playing games with
dinner rolls? I'm not too familiar with either.
> How many of you were inspired to invent a language because you heard
> of this listserv?
0, but at least one may have been inspired by things I heard *through* the
list
> How many of you are members of the Mythopoeic Society, or the Society
> for Creative Anachronism, or other High Fantasy Groups?
0
>PART III: NON-CELTIC CONLANGERS:
>
>In the discussions I've witnessed on Conlang in almost five years, I've
>observed that many conlangers have deliberately avoided "Tolkienesque"
>languages, and even Indo-European languages as models for conlangs, and
>especially the "Celtic." Why? Boring? Overdone? Trite? Too pretty?
>Too Western? Or none of the above--just more interested in something else?
><G> I don't want to give the impression that I think we conlang only
>because of Tolkien, and that anything we invent has to be INSPIRED BY or a
>DEPARTURE from the "Great One"; but in this question I'm eager to see some
>eschewal of or at least indifference towards the Tolkien, the "Celtic,"
>and/or even the Indo-European model.
>
>What is your name and what do you call your conlang?
Jeff Jones; 'Yemls, MNCL, etc.
>So what is unappealing about the Indo-European model for conlanging? Or
>Tolkien's Elvish?
>How did you start conlanging? What was your initial inspiration?
by this time, I've forgotten
>Did you know about Tolkien's inventions? Read the books, the appendices?
>etc. Or not?
not
>What language types have you modeled your language(s) after?
>
>What features of these languages or language types appeal to you?
I don't generally use a specific model, but try to develop from the ground
up (excluding apost, of course). I've heard of specific features and tried
using them, though.
> Some of you, and I'm thinking in particular of a conversation I had
> with And Rosta, are not interested in producing a language that is
> "mellifluous"--that "mellifluousness" is a thing to be avoided in your
> conlang and especially as it is associated with Tolkien's Elvish or
> copiers of Elvish. Is this so? Why?
I don't try to either imitate or avoid that sort of thing. I do prefer to
make a language that I can speak easily. I guess that would be
"aquifluous"???
>For how many of you, though, is beauty and/or efficiency a factor in your
>language? Or elegance? How would you define these terms?
I find efficiency and brevity of expression highly desirable. I don't know
how to define "elegance", but I recognize inelegance when I see it.
>For how many of you is the "exotic" a desired feature of your invented
>language?
Trying to be "exotic" is a lost cause.
> How many of you invent a non-human language? And if so, how alien are
> its sounds and constructions?
I haven't tried it -- doing it properly would require working out the
acoustics of the sound-producing mechanism, which would require me to be a
physicist.
> Do you prefer inventing an a posteriori language or an a priori
> language? In other words, how many of you invent a language wherein
> you base it closely on a natural language (Arabic, Tagalog) or a
> combination of languages, and how many others of you invent a language
> from, well, scratch? (if that can be done.)
I've tried both.
> How many of you invent a language based on a particular type
> (Ergative, Accusative, Trigger, etc.)?
Not really. MNCL is supposed to have ergativity as a feature.
> To what degree is difficulty and irregularity of language important
> to you in your conlang? what natural language eccentricities (or
> efficiencies) do you like and try to reproduce?
>
> To what degree is accessibility, efficiency, and regularity important
> to your conlang? What natural language "faults" are you correcting?
I try to be as regular as possible without trying to stuff everything into
arbitrary "philosophical" pigeon-holes.
> How many of you invent logical languages?
not in the strict lo??an sense of making the syntax match that of
conventional logical notation, but I've tried to document the language's
logic in some cases
> How many of you invent IALs?
I'm not of that religion. (but I have this secret dream of creating a
strictly personal language that nevertheless catches on with the general
public and becomes an international language making me rich and famous when
all I ever expected was to be a humble artlanger)
> How many of you have invented non-Tolkienesque or non European
> concultures and what are they like?
0
None of my languages are well-enough developed for me to see what the
implicit conculture is, although MNCL is known not to have a good
translation for "God".
>How many of you started out by pulling words out of the air, originally?
>How many of you have chosen a more methodic form of vocabulary building?
>I.e., how have you gone about setting up the framework for your words
> and your grammar? (I started out pulling words out of the air.)
I don't have any workable method for vocabulary building.
>PART IV: THE LUNATIC SURVEY REVISITED (because we are all "fous du
>langage," according to Yaguello and other French critics.
>
> Why do you conlang? Who will speak it? Read it? What's the point?
> What's the beauty? what's the intellectual draw?
>
> To what would you compare a conlang? Is it a miniature? Is it a model?
> Is it a tapestry? Is it an act of obsession and madness? <G> Or is it
> a communicable language?
Just doing it takes up enough time. I don't try to justify or classify it.
> If it is a communicable language, to whom do you speak it?
Somebody who hasn't been innoculated?
> To what extent is the opacity or "alterity" of your language something
> that pleases you? In other words, the sounds and the script have, even
> for you, a quality of being foreign, and this delights.
> Comment? (I know that when I make maps of cities, and imagine myself
> in them, they delight me because they are both familiar and foreign at
> the same time.)
I'm more interested in finding a language that feels "native" to me.
> This is a difficult question: how is it that a word sounds "right" to
> you? We recently discussed this. To what extent are you finding
> righter, better words for the world in your conlang? (Perhaps
> unanswerable).
For the most part, I _haven't_ been finding righter, better words.
> How many of you are fictive map-makers, designers of fictive floor
> plans, fictive yachts, fictive star-ships, world-builders,
> calligraphers, cartoonists, etc.? (These pursuits have been
> associated with conlanging. I've done most of them.)
I used to do floor plans, microprocessor instruction sets, and some other
miscellaneous stuff. Nothing near the scope of world-building.
> How many of you have a special script in your conlang?
'Yemls has a 52 character syllabary, which closely resembles the roman
alphabet. Eventually, I plan to make a font for it.
> If you use Roman script, how recognizably "phonetic" is your writing
> system? In other words, do you use unconventional letters to represent
> sounds? Why?
My writing systems tend to be phonemic rather than phonetic. I tend to
avoid modified letters since they're hard to type and read on the computer
(although very good for handwritten). My preferences for representing
phonemes are:
1) single lower case
2) single upper case
3) lower case digraphs
4) letters with diacritics
5) other ASCII
I'm not sure how to describe how Rubaga uses the alphabet. Interlaced
featuremes?????
> This is a question Heather asked, but I also asked it four years ago:
> how many of you write in your language? What do you write?
The longest I've done was one of the relay texts. Nothing original but
short sample sentences.
> How many of you sing in your language and have invented songs for that
> purpose?
0
> How many of you started conlanging when you were a teenager and have
> stuck to the same language over many years? Why?
0
> How many of you change conlangs regularly, developing structures for
> many languages but not sticking with any one for very long? Why?
general lack of continuity
> For how many of you does your language function as a spiritual
> instrument? This is a deeply personal question--let me give you an
> example. When I first started inventing "Tayonian" in my early teens,
> what I wrote were spells and prayers. They had a talismanic quality.
> Does that ring a bell for anybody?
0
> For how many of you was your language at least at one stage of its
> making meant to fool others, or to write secret diaries? (Me, waving my
> hand).
I though of something like that in the earliest stages, but I've never had
a language well-enough developed to carry it out.
> How many of you can speak your language, at least to yourself and your
> pet? child? spouse? <G> To what extent?
no spice or children. I don't know if you consider cockroaches to be pets,
but there's no need to talk to them, since they're telepathic.
> How many of you have put up websites where your language can be
> showcased? If so, what is the website address?
website not worth visiting right now
> How many of you have made soundbytes of your language so the rest of
> us can hear it? If so, give the site.
no sound equipment
> How many of you are comfortable talking to your boss, your professors,
> your family members about this pursuit? How many of you have received
> condescending or other negative responses to your disclosure? (I have.)
> Or even been called "pathological"?
Right now, I'm unemployed and not in school, and both parents are deceased.
When I have told people, they usually say that's interesting, tell me more.
The closest thing I've had to a negative response is when someone told me I
was being too secretive about it.
> If this attitude is changing, to what do you attribute the change? (On
> New Year's Eve, a delightful, elderly gentleman could not understand
> why I would be interested in this pursuit. What purpose could it
> serve?)
> For how many of you is the damning statement "better to learn real
> languages than invent private ones" a criticism you have encountered?
> What would be your response to such a remark?
I've never heard that. I might say that inventing a language is a lot
cheaper than learning an existing language.
>PART V: GENERAL DEMOGRAPHICS:
>
> What is your age (optional--and can be general: 30-40, for instance).
45
> What is your profession or your station in life (i.e., if you are a
> student, what is your MAJOR; if a middle or high-school student, what
> is your intended major)?
assembly language or embedded systems programmer
>What is your gender?
male
>What is your nationality and your native language?
citizen of the galaxy, none (OK, technically USA, English)
>What natural languages do you speak or have studied?
formal study: German (in HS, 3 years), Spanish (4 terms), Japanese (2
terms), Latin (1 term), Russian (1 lesson). I don't speak any fluently, but
occasionally use Spanish. I've also looked at a number of language books
over the years.
>How many of you have chosen a profession in linguistics because of your
>interest in inventing languages? Or plan a profession in linguistics?
0
> What have you learned from conlanging?
> What texts on language and linguistics have you consulted to help invent
> your language?
Pike's Phonemics, Hale and Buck's Latin grammar, Pharr/Wright Homeric
Greek, probably others ....
>Do you know of anyone who has not connected with the Internet or the List
>who has invented a language? (I'm firmly convinced that "conlanging" has
>been a private pursuit for many people long before the list started, but
>that the list has increased its visibility as an art).
A college roommate in 1977 started his own, after I told him about mine.
> Can you give me a short sample of your language with interlinear
> description and translation?
I hope these are short enough.
A MNCL saying:
{ize tomo tana; tomafabe pana}
`-iz-e tom-o tan-a; tom-af-ab-e pan-a
IND-PRS-VRB 1PP.INC-CPL teeth-ABS 1PP.INC-POS-FUT-VRB bread-ABS
exist now our teeth; belong to us will bread
IND indefinite (a normally unwritten glottal stop)
PRS present tense (transient, distinct from permanent)
FUT future tense
VRB marks the syntactical verb of the clause
1PP.INC 1st person inclusive
ABS absolutive case
CPL marks a required object, called the complement
POS possessive (alienable)
For inalienable possession, the possessor is the complement of the
possessed.
On the surface, this translates "We have teeth; we will have bread."
However, the contrast between present and future can produce a sense of
irony.
A dialog in 'Yemls:
guest) {Tel: WtQ.}
["t_h3i.li: "mEt_h.k_hV]
Tel-: W-tQ
toilet-SBJ LOC-QUE
Where's a toilet?
host) {a Tel: WW d TqB.}
[gU "t_h3i.li: "mE.mE dU "t_hOk_h.bV]
a Tel-: WW d TqB
EXI toilet-SBJ LOC DEF tree
There's a latrine by the trees.
[the guest starts to leave]
host) {aez-q DoUOj.}
["gwi:.zUk_h dou"xA:.d_ZI]
aez-q DoUOj
use-IMP torch
Why don't you use a flashlight?
SBJ marks subject phrase
LOC locative
QUE query pronoun
EXI existential quantifier
DEF definite determiner
IMP imperative (used for a suggestion in this case)
> Would you object to my mentioning your conlang/and or your name in my
> talk? I will be discreet about some of the more personal questions you
> answered.
OK
>Ev send poto, yry poy poy firrimby!
>
>Sally Caves
>scaves@frontiernet.net
Well this only took 4 hours!