Re: New Survey: Celtic Conlangs (and other lunatic pursuits)

Sally Caves nevesht:
>
>Vyko!  My apologies for imposing another survey on you!  It comes in five
>parts, and repeats some of the questions I aired in my original "Lunatic
>Survey" in 1998.  I'm posting it again, though, given all the newcomers,
>and
>because I have continuous new uses for it.  In the first three parts of the
>survey, I'm interested in gauging the degree to which Celtic languages have
>been popular models among us language cobblers.  Or unpopular models.
>These
>questions, then, are designed not just for Celtic conlang buffs but for
>those who avoid the "Celtic."  Part of the reason I'm posting this survey
>is
>that I'm talking at several conferences in the Spring about the influence
>of
>Celtic on some language inventors (among other things about invented
>languages).  Given their difficulties, Celtic languages (along with
>countless other languages!) are not often the models for IALs.  These
>features that make them difficult or unusual, though, may appeal especially
>to conlangers, not to mention their associations with a long-standing
>British Isles/Northwestern European mythology that Tolkien drew upon
>(Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian included), and which have so engaged
>contemporary High Fantasy.  So what feels like an arbitrary question has a
>focus for me, and I would so appreciate your taking the time to answer some
>or all of these questions.  You can send your answers to me privately or
>post them to the list.
>
>A REQUEST:  IF YOU ARE NOT ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS OF THE SURVEY, BUT
>RESPONDING INCIDENTALLY TO SOMETHING SOMEONE SAID, PLEASE RETITLE THE
>SUBJECT HEADER!  Firrimby! <G>  You also don't have to answer all of these
>questions.  Answer the ones that are relevant or important to you.
>
>
>PART I.  FOR CELTIC CONLANGERS:
>
{snip}
>
>
>PART II:  INSPIRATION BY TOLKIEN (tangential to the questions on
>inspiration
>by Celtic languages):
>
>How many of you were inspired to invent a language because of your
> >exposure to Tolkien?
Me, for one.
>
>How many of you based your conlang on one of Tolkien's languages, or your
>conculture in Middle Earth?
>
>How many of you have a constructed world, and, if so, does it include some
>of the races we associate with Celtic or Scandinavian mythology? (Elves,
>Dwarves, medieval societies of humans, Faeries or Fays?  Selkies?
>Wizards?)
Constructed worlds, often just an idea, but for a conculture it is
inevitable.
>
>How many of you were inspired to examine Welsh, Hebrew, or Finnish because
>of your examination of Tolkien?
>
>How many of you were inspired to invent a conlang or a conculture because
>of
>some influence OTHER than Tolkien?
Other than JRRT, I was inspired by the multilingual nature of my
hometown(Vancouver, Canada), by Elgin, Swithin, LeGuin, and other authors,
Esperanto, and this list(although I had doodled some language stuff before).
>
>How many of you were inspired to invent a language because you engage in
>Roll-Playing Games?
No
>
>How many of you were inspired to invent a language because you heard >of
>this listserv?
>
>How many of you are members of the Mythopoeic Society, or the Society for
>Creative Anachronism, or other High Fantasy Groups?
>
No
>
>PART III:  NON-CELTIC CONLANGERS:
>
>In the discussions I've witnessed on Conlang in almost five years, I've
>observed that many conlangers have deliberately avoided "Tolkienesque"
>languages, and even Indo-European languages as models for conlangs, and
>especially the "Celtic."  Why?  Boring?  Overdone?  Trite?  Too pretty?
>Too Western?  Or none of the above--just more interested in something else?
><G>  I don't want to give the impression that I think we conlang only
>because of Tolkien, and that anything we invent has to be INSPIRED BY or a
>DEPARTURE from the "Great One"; but in this question I'm eager to see some
>eschewal of or at least indifference towards the Tolkien, the "Celtic,"
>and/or even the Indo-European model.
>
>What is your name and what do you call your conlang?
>
Wayne Chevrier. The conlang I'm the most on now is Lisa`nre.
Others are Lisanek, 'Lisando', L4, Ladein/Romaence, and bare sketches for
future versions of various languages(Xvansei, etc.), a Japanese-Finnish
Creole, quasiAuxlangs, etc.
>So what is unappealing about the Indo-European model for conlanging?  Or
>Tolkien's Elvish?
Nothing, but my inspiration mostly comes from where I live, so the North
Pacific(First Nations and East Asia).
>
>How did you start conlanging?  What was your initial inspiration?
Hearing various languages and JRRT
>
>Did you know about Tolkien's inventions?  Read the books, the appendices?
>etc.  Or not?
O,Yes
>
>What language types have you modeled your language(s) after?
>
First Nations, Asia, and to lesser extent, Africa and Europe

>What features of these languages or language types appeal to you?
>
How different they are, from English and each other.

>Some of you, and I'm thinking in particular of a conversation I had >with
>And Rosta, are not interested in producing a language that is
>"mellifluous"--that "mellifluousness" is a thing to be avoided in >your
>conlang and especially as it is associated with Tolkien's Elvish  >or
>copiers of Elvish.   Is this so?  Why?
I am interested in the aesthetics of the language, as well as a "natural"
feeling.

>For how many of you, though, is beauty and/or efficiency a factor in your
>language?  Or elegance?  How would you define these terms?
>
I like elegance and beauty.

>For how many of you is the "exotic" a desired feature of your invented
>language?
>
Definitely
>How many of you invent a non-human language?  And if so, how alien are its
>sounds and constructions?
>
Not yet
>Do you prefer inventing an a posteriori language or an a priori language?
>In other words, how many of you invent a language wherein you base it
>closely on a natural language (Arabic, Tagalog) or a combination of
>languages, and how many others of you invent a language from, well,
>scratch?
>(if that can be done.)
>
Based on enough languages that it is effectively a priori
>How many of you invent a language based on a particular type (Ergative,
>Accusative, Trigger, etc.)?
>
Lisanek is ergative, Lisa`nre direct/inverse, Lisando: 5 genders
>To what degree is difficulty and irregularity of language important to you
>in your conlang?  what natural language eccentricities (or >efficiencies)
>do you like and try to reproduce?
Idioms, oddities of gender, etc.
>
>To what degree is accessibility, efficiency, and regularity important
>toyour conlang?  What natural language "faults" are you correcting?
>
little and none
>How many of you invent logical languages?
>
No
>How many of you invent IALs?
>
Sort of, one very euroclone, another IAL based on Islamic and Subcontinental
vocabulary

>How many of you have invented non-Tolkienesque or non European >concultures
>and what are they like?
>
Giketuk(Lisanek speakers):blood rituals, human sacrifice(as equivalent to
last rites, else voluntary), lots of fermented foods(but no blood/dairy),
Autonomous cities(A la Ancient Greece), longhouses/apartments, zero
privacy(it being considered wrong to be 'antisocial')
Lisando: women as property(effectively and grammatically, but actually women
have almost total control of the economy), patriarchal, public servants are
the king's slaves, the native name of the language means ' not foreign
gibberish', smiths as priests, all in all not the nicest people.
Lisa`nre: no keeping animals for food, matrilineal, aristocrats.

>How many of you started out by pulling words out of the air, originally?
>How many of you have chosen a more methodic form of vocabulary building?
>I.e., how have you gone about setting up the framework for your words and
>your grammar?
>(I started out pulling words out of the air.)
Often use interlinguistic puns (in lisanek "gardan" = "to neck", because
"nek" in Farsi means "garden")
I start with an idea, and work from there(often none of the original left by
the end.)
>
>
>PART IV:  THE LUNATIC SURVEY REVISITED (because we are all "fous du
>langage," according to Yaguello and other French critics.
>
>Why do you conlang?  Who will speak it?  Read it?  What's the point?
>What'sthe beauty?  what's the intellectual draw?
It is fun, and I am interested in "Pattern", be it
art/language/mthematics/music/etc.
>
>To what would you compare a conlang?  Is it a miniature?  Is it a model?
>Is
>it a tapestry?  Is it an act of obsession and madness? <G>  Or is it a
>communicable language?
(Is conlanging a communicable disease? :))
>
>If it is a communicable language, to whom do you speak it?
>
>To what extent is the opacity or "alterity" of your language something that
>pleases you?  In other words, the sounds and the script have, even for you,
>a quality of being foreign, and this delights.
>Comment?  (I know that when I make maps of cities, and imagine myself in
>them, they delight me because they are both familiar and foreign at the
>same
>time.)
>
>This is a difficult question:  how is it that a word sounds "right" to you?
>We recently discussed this.  To what extent are you finding righter, better
>words for the world in your conlang?  (Perhaps unanswerable).
>
>How many of you are fictive map-makers, designers of fictive floor plans,
>fictive yachts, fictive star-ships, world-builders, calligraphers,
>cartoonists, etc.?  (These pursuits have been associated with >conlanging.
>I've done most of them.)
>
>How many of you have a special script in your conlang?
>
>If you use Roman script, how recognizably "phonetic" is your writing
>system?
>In other words, do you use unconventional letters to represent sounds?
>Why?
>
>This is a question Heather asked, but I also asked it four years ago:  how
>many of you write in your language?  What do you write?
>
>How many of you sing in your language and have invented songs for that
>purpose?
>
>How many of you started conlanging when you were a teenager and have stuck
>to the same language over many years?   Why?
>
>How many of you change conlangs regularly, developing structures for many
>languages but not sticking with any one for very long?  Why?
Yes, because I cant seem to go further with one, or I have a new idea.
>
>For how many of you does your language function as a spiritual instrument?
>This is a deeply personal question--let me give you an example.  When I
>first started inventing "Tayonian" in my early teens, what I wrote were
>spells and prayers.  They had a talismanic quality.  Does that ring a bell
>for anybody?
>
>For how many of you was your language at least at one stage of its making
>meant to fool others, or to write secret diaries? (Me, waving my hand).
>
>How many of you can speak your language, at least to yourself and your pet?
>child?  spouse?  <G>  To what extent?
>
>How many of you have put up websites where your language can be showcased?
>If so, what is the website address?
>
>How many of you have made soundbytes of your language so the rest of us can
>hear it?  If so, give the site.
>
>How many of you are comfortable talking to your boss, your professors, your
>family members about this pursuit?   How many of you have received
>condescending or other negative responses to your disclosure?  (I >have.)
>Or even been called "pathological"?
>
>If this attitude is changing, to what do you attribute the change?  (On New
>Year's Eve, a delightful, elderly gentleman could not understand why I
>would be interested in this pursuit.  What purpose could it serve?)
>
>For how many of you is the damning statement "better to learn real
> >languages than invent private ones" a criticism you have encountered?
> >What would be your response to such a remark?
>
>
>PART V:  GENERAL DEMOGRAPHICS:
>
>What is your age (optional--and can be general: 30-40, for instance).
>
30
>What is your profession or your station in life (i.e., if you are a
>student,
>what is your MAJOR; if a middle or high-school student, what is your
>intended major)?
>
>What is your gender?
Male
>
>What is your nationality and your native language?
Canadian(Scots-Irish, Quebecois, Romany, German, First Nations)
English
>What natural languages do you speak or have studied?
>
I speak English. Je parle francais un peu. Hablo espan~ol un poco.
I one dictionaries/ teach yourself/etc. of the following
English, Old English, Turkish, Norwegian, Western Abenaki, Japanese,
Indonesian, Ancient Greek, Romanian, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese.
And several books on linguistics.
>How many of you have chosen a profession in linguistics because of your
>interest in inventing languages?  Or plan a profession in linguistics?
>
>What have you learned from conlanging?
>
>What texts on language and linguistics have you consulted to help invent
>your language?
>
Gave me inspiration, and knowledge.
>Do you know of anyone who has not connected with the Internet or the List
>who has invented a language? (I'm firmly convinced that "conlanging" has
>been a private pursuit for many people long before the list started, but
>that the list has increased its visibility as an art).
>
>Can you give me a short sample of your language with interlinear
>description and translation?
None are quite there, and I dont have my materials with me

>
>Would you object to my mentioning your conlang/and or your name in my talk?
No, not at all.
>I will be discreet about some of the more personal questions you answered.
>
>




-Wayne Chevrier







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