Re: New Survey: Celtic Conlangs (and other lunatic pursuits)

On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 15:10:24 -0500 Sally Caves <scaves@...>
writes:
> PART II:  INSPIRATION BY TOLKIEN (tangential to the questions on
> inspiration by Celtic languages):
> How many of you were inspired to invent a language because of your
> exposure to Tolkien?
-

me!
Actually, my immediate impetus to begin Rokbeigalmki was in order to
create a background and depth for my character on ElendorMUSH, the online
Tolkien-themed role-playing game.
My (and my brother's) first conlang, ool-Nuziiferoi, was a bit less
directly influenced by Tolkien.  We worked on it around the same time as
we started learning Spanish in 9th grade.  Some of its workings are
inspired by Hebrew, but the writing system it used was based (badly :-) )
on Tolkienic Tengwar principles.

> How many of you based your conlang on one of Tolkien's languages, or
> your conculture in Middle Earth?
-

My main conlang, Rokbeigalmki, is set in Middle Earth.  2 out of the 3
characters i've played on Elendor were Rokbeigalmki-speakers.

> How many of you have a constructed world, and, if so, does it
> include some
> of the races we associate with Celtic or Scandinavian mythology?
> (Elves,
> Dwarves, medieval societies of humans, Faeries or Fays?  Selkies?
> Wizards?)
-

During somewheres around 6-8th grade, my brother and i invented a
role-playing game.  The setting spanned a wide range of periods, from
prehistoric to futuristic, but we usually played in a roughly
medieval/fantasy style.  There were a variety of races, some of which
were inspired or borrowed from Tolkien, others of which were mixtures of
Tolkienic races and races from other Fantasy or Science Fiction settings
(David Brin's Uplift series, Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame,
etc.), and others that were completely original or at least only slightly
based on other works.
A previous world we had created, when very young, included Tolkienic
races as well as more unusual fantasy races - sentient elephants, for
instance.

> How many of you were inspired to examine Welsh, Hebrew, or Finnish
> because of your examination of Tolkien?
-

I don't think i really was... i don't have much interest in Finnish, i
already knew Hebrew, and i became interested in Welsh not because of
Tolkien, but because of the book "The Grey King" by Susan Cooper, in her
"Dark is Rising" series.  I haven't actually studied Welsh in depth, but
i like what i've seen of it.

> How many of you were inspired to invent a conlang or a conculture
> because of some influence OTHER than Tolkien?
-

I've gotten a lot of inspiration from the Conlang list itself.  Brithenig
and other romanceconlangs inspired me to begin Judajca, which then became
caught up in Brithenig's alternative universe of "Ill Bethisad".  BP
Jonsson's alternate timeline "Lucus" inspired me to join up with Ill
Bethisad, creating the conculture of Mueva Sefarad (which has no
associated conlang, because they speak the natlang Judeo-Spanish).

> How many of you were inspired to invent a language because you
> engage in Roll-Playing Games?
-

My Goblin language, Gabwe, was invented in order to make my Live Action
Role Playing character more realistic.  By chanting his spells (he was a
monk with a few extra healing skills) in Gabwe instead of English, i made
the whole "human raised in Goblin territory" concept more obvious.
Also, of course, the RPG ElendorMUSH was the reason i created
Rokbeigalmki.

> How many of you were inspired to invent a language because you heard
> of this listserv?
-

Learning more about linguistics and other people's conlangs on this
listserv have inspired me to create more.

> How many of you are members of the Mythopoeic Society, or the
> Society for Creative Anachronism, or other High Fantasy Groups?
-

I went to about 2 SCA meetings a few years ago, but wasn't really into
it.  They didn't seem to like fantasy that much, they were more into
accurate reproduction of medieval European culture.

> PART III:  NON-CELTIC CONLANGERS:
> What is your name and what do you call your conlang?
-

"Steg" Belsky.
my non-Celtic, non-IE, non-Tolkienesque conlangs are Gabwe and USC, the
Unnamed Semitic Conlang (which i haven't really worked on much)

> So what is unappealing about the Indo-European model for conlanging?
>  Or Tolkien's Elvish?
-

I don't find them unappealing (after all, i have both IE and
Elvish-inspired conlangs also), i just have other interests also.

> How did you start conlanging?  What was your initial inspiration?
-

(already talked about that above)

> Did you know about Tolkien's inventions?  Read the books, the
> appendices? Or not?
-

Yup.  liked them.  didn't understand the linguistic material the first
time i read them, though. (i was in 4th grade).

> What language types have you modeled your language(s) after?
-

Gabwe is supposed to be as different from my native language(s) as
possible.  English is usually SVO, so i made Gabwe OVS.
The USC is an aposteriori Semitic conlang, so it eventually when i work
on it more will have a recognizable family resemblance to Hebrew, Arabic,
etc.

> What features of these languages or language types appeal to you?
-

Well, Gabwe's features are meant to be alien, since it's the native
language of a non-human species.
I want to work more on USC because i'm interested in Semitic languages.

> Some of you, and I'm thinking in particular of a conversation I had
> with And
> Rosta, are not interested in producing a language that is
>  "mellifluous"--that "mellifluousness" is a thing to be avoided in
> your
> conlang and especially as it is associated with Tolkien's Elvish or
> copiers of Elvish.   Is this so?  Why?
-

It depends.  Rokbeigalmki is already pretty much disharmonious sounding,
even though it's set in Tolkien's World and has borrowings from two of
his Elven languages.  Judajca and USC are meant to be realistic, so
Judajca should sound like Hebraicized Romance, and USC should sound
recognizable as a Semitic language.  Gabwe is meant to be alien in both
structure and sound, which is why the entire language is spoken with
creaky tone (which is hard to keep up for those long spells! :-P ).
ool-Nuziiferoi, my first conlang, i don't think had very much of a sound
style behind it.  It certainly had much fewer consonant clusters than
Rokbeigalmki does!  I'd like to make a very mellifluous conlang, though.
I have a sketchy idea for a family of languages similar to Tolkien's big
project which would also try to be mellifluous, at least some of the
descendent languages would be :-) .


> For how many of you, though, is beauty and/or efficiency a factor in
> your language?  Or elegance?  How would you define these terms?
-

I like being able to speak my languages.  One of my problems with
Rokbeigalmki is that sometimes it gets too choppy and disharmonious that
i can't pronounce it properly.  I'd like my conlangs to be more
aesthetically pleasing, but it's not a very important factor.

> For how many of you is the "exotic" a desired feature of your
> invented language?
-

Depends on the language.  Gabwe is supposed to be exotic all the way.
The aposteriori ones are supposed to be realistic.

> How many of you invent a non-human language?  And if so, how alien
> are its sounds and constructions?
-

Gabwe!  beyond what i've already said, it has a wide range of dialects,
each with their own 'unusual' (at least to me) phonologies.  You can see
a chart of them at:
http://bingweb.binghamton.edu/~bh11744/gabwe/Tiereans.jpg

> Do you prefer inventing an a posteriori language or an a priori
> language?
> In other words, how many of you invent a language wherein you base
> it
> closely on a natural language (Arabic, Tagalog) or a combination of
> languages, and how many others of you invent a language from, well,
> scratch? (if that can be done.)
-

I don't think i really prefer one to the other... the only problem with
aposteriori conlangs is that you need to be familiar with the language(s)
you're basing them off of.  That's the reason my work on Judajca and USC
goes so slowly - i don't know that much about Latin, and next to nothing
about Proto-Semitic.

> How many of you invent a language based on a particular type
> (Ergative, Accusative, Trigger, etc.)?
-

naaa...

> To what degree is difficulty and irregularity of language important
> to you
> in your conlang?  what natural language eccentricities (or
> efficiencies) do you like and try to reproduce?
-

I always thought that Rokbeigalmki was boringly regular, until you
(Sally, the surveyer) complained to me during a relay that the semantic
relationships between simple, causative, passive, and causative-passive
variations of the same root were unpredictably idiosyncratic.  So then i
don't worry anymore about structural irregularity in Rokbeigalmki since i
already have syntactic irregularity.
Gabwe is regular, since i feel that makes it more alien.  But, it also
has unusual features like having only 1 of each second and third person
pronouns, but 4 first person pronouns. (me, me+you, me+them, me+you+them)

Judajca and USC will end up with much natural-like irregularness.  (or at
least diachronic regularity that looks like irregularity)

> To what degree is accessibility, efficiency, and regularity
> important to
> your conlang?  What natural language "faults" are you correcting?
-

Well, with ool-Nuziiferoi and later Rokbeigalmki i wanted to 'correct'
the 'fault' of gender.  Both languages work on a system of real-world
gender where inanimate objects are inanimate, and you don't need to refer
to someone's sex if you don't want to.

> How many of you invent logical languages?
-

naa.

> How many of you invent IALs?
-

naaa.

> How many of you have invented non-Tolkienesque or non European
> concultures and what are they like?
-

Well, the Rokbeigalm are both non-Tolkienesque and non-European even
though they live in Tolkien's world.  They are partially modelled after
the Polynesians (since they're nomadic oceandwellers), the central
African Forest People ('Pygmies'), and Middle-Easterners, as well as
other inspirations and original ideas.  Of course, since they live in
Tolkien's world, they do have some influences from his mythos.

> How many of you started out by pulling words out of the air,
> originally?
> How many of you have chosen a more methodic form of vocabulary
> building?
> I.e., how have you gone about setting up the framework for your
> words and your grammar?
> (I started out pulling words out of the air.)
-

I started pulling words out of the air for Rokbeigalmki, although many of
the words are very obviously inspired by natlangs such as English,
Spanish and Hebrew.
Since Gabwe is more about the structure and the use of it than real
artistry, most of its words are shamelessly borrowed from natlangs,
although modified to fit its eccentric phonology.
Judajca and USC are supposed to have 'master plans' of vocabulary
generation.

> PART IV:  THE LUNATIC SURVEY REVISITED (because we are all "fous du
> langage," according to Yaguello and other French critics.
> Why do you conlang?  Who will speak it?  Read it?  What's the point?
>  What's the beauty?  what's the intellectual draw?
-

The beauty is creation.  I believe in Tolkien's idea of 'subcreation' (at
least as much as i've read about it), which i feel meshes with the Jewish
idea of |vehalakhta biderakhav| "you shall walk in [God's] ways", meaning
that just as God creates the universe, we also should create - both by
building on God's creation in the physical world by developing science,
and by creating worlds of imagination through art (which includes
conlanging).
The point of conlanging is like the point of any art, mind game, or
intellectual exercise - to take ideas and feelings that are inside you
and express them into the outside world, and to discover new things about
the outside world and express them inside you.
It's also fun :-) , especially when you can write secret notes to
yourself or other people.  Conlanging can also be used to bring more
realism to other artistic pursuits like stories, poetry, RPGs...

> To what would you compare a conlang?  Is it a miniature?  Is it a
> model?  Is
> it a tapestry?  Is it an act of obsession and madness? <G>  Or is it
> a communicable language?
> If it is a communicable language, to whom do you speak it?
-

I guess i think of it as a model.  You can have very spare, basic conlang
sketches, that are similar to paper airplanes, but the more you work on
it the more it becomes a full-fledged communicable language; so your
original paper airplane can develop into a jet so similar to 'the real
thing' that it *is* the real thing.

> To what extent is the opacity or "alterity" of your language
> something that
> pleases you?  In other words, the sounds and the script have, even
> for you, a quality of being foreign, and this delights.
> Comment?  (I know that when I make maps of cities, and imagine
> myself in
> them, they delight me because they are both familiar and foreign at
> the same time.)
-

Sometimes it annoys me.  I'd love to be able to speak all my conlangs
fluently, and read all my conscripts and codes fluently, but it's just
not happening.  So when i find some old writing or calligraphy that i
made a long time ago, and have trouble decyphering it, i feel alienated
from myself - like i should be able to understand it, because i made it,
but i can't, so it can be aggravating.
But at the same time, i have created everything that still seems so
foreign and weird to me, so i feel good that i can even confuse myself.
:-P

> This is a difficult question:  how is it that a word sounds "right"
> to you?
> We recently discussed this.  To what extent are you finding righter,
> better words for the world in your conlang?  (Perhaps unanswerable).
-

I usually find that many of my words have subconsciously been influenced
by the natlangs that i know, so i guess they shape my aesthetics when it
comes to the connection of sound representation to reality.
Sometimes, though, i come up with a word for a concept that it's harder
to express in the natlangs i know.  For instance, the Rokbeigalmki
aesthetic idea of |ngiirau| can only be approximated in English as
something like "appreciation for the power in dangerous forces as
something beautiful".

> How many of you are fictive map-makers, designers of fictive floor
> plans,
> fictive yachts, fictive star-ships, world-builders, calligraphers,
> cartoonists, etc.?  (These pursuits have been associated with
> conlanging.  I've done most of them.)
-

When i was younger i used to make lots of maps.  My brother made a whole
series of maps over many years, all of which are 8.5x11 pieces of printer
paper that fit together into a huge map of a world.
When we were very little we also used to make very involved stories about
our toy cars and stuffed animals, complete with names, nationalities and
personalities.

> How many of you have a special script in your conlang?
-

Rokbeigalmki uses a few different developments of the ool-Nuziiferoi
alphabet, which was originally designed by me and my brother based on our
poor understanding of the phonetic principles behind Tolkien's Tengwar
writing system.
Gabwe is written in a phonetographic script inspired by Korean.

> If you use Roman script, how recognizably "phonetic" is your writing
> system?
> In other words, do you use unconventional letters to represent
> sounds? Why?
-

The Roman script transliteration i've been using for Judajca is mostly
phonetic... everything is pretty much logical, although still sometimes
unusual, for instance using |x| for an emphatic /t/.

> This is a question Heather asked, but I also asked it four years
> ago:  how
> many of you write in your language?  What do you write?
-

I write notes to myself.  Back when i used to use a pad of paper for
random notes instead of a palmpilot-type device, my pad was full of
multi-lingual multi-colored random jottings in a variety of conlangs and
natlangs.  Now i still write multilingual notes to myself, but not as
often.
I've written two original poems in Rokbeigalmki, and translated a few
random texts into it, such as prayers and poems, both written by others
and written by me.
All my LARP character's spells were written in Gabwe; i then translated
them into English for when my throat was too tired from using so much
creaky voice.

> How many of you sing in your language and have invented songs for
> that purpose?
-

My original poems in Rokbeigalmki have tunes that they can be sung to.  I
also sing Rokbeigalmki translations of a few poems and prayers, and a few
lines from songs on the radio.

> How many of you started conlanging when you were a teenager and have
> stuck to the same language over many years?   Why?
-

me, although i'm only 21 so i don't think that's so long. :-) .  I've
stuck to them because i want them to be as complete as possible, and that
won't happen if i just abandon them.

> How many of you change conlangs regularly, developing structures for
> many languages but not sticking with any one for very long?  Why?
-

Every so often i come up with a new random sketch, but they hardly ever
get worked on.

> For how many of you does your language function as a spiritual
> instrument?
> This is a deeply personal question--let me give you an example.
> When I
> first started inventing "Tayonian" in my early teens, what I wrote
> were
> spells and prayers.  They had a talismanic quality.  Does that ring
> a bell for anybody?
-

Most of what i've translated into Rokbeigalmki for singing purposes has
been religious, personal, or spiritual in nature.  Probably because i
feel more of a connection to those kinds of texts than to just random
stuff.

> For how many of you was your language at least at one stage of its
> making
> meant to fool others, or to write secret diaries? (Me, waving my
> hand).
-

I did that.  Between ool-Nuziiferoi and Rokbeigalmki, i used the
ool-Nuziiferoi alphabet for writing secret messages and for drawing
calligraphy while i was bored in class.  Sometimes i would draw
calligraphy on the blackboard between periods as a way to get attention.
:-)

> How many of you can speak your language, at least to yourself and
> your pet? child?  spouse?  <G>  To what extent?
-

I can speak some very basic Rokbeigalmki.  I've also been known to use
the Rokbeigalmki expletive |shahhwa!|.  Hopefully when i get married and
have kids i'll teach them some Rokbeigalmki so we could use it as a
secret family language.
I think i used Rokbeigalmki to talk to (or 'at') a friend's newborn
daughter once.
For a while my brother understood the Rokbeigalmki question |hawa ezá?|
"what are you doing?"

> How many of you have put up websites where your language can be
> showcased? If so, what is the website address?
-

A long time ago i made:
http://www.geocities.com/boroparkpyro/conlang.html
Then later on i made:
http://bingweb.binghamton.edu/~bh11744/
Both of those have to do with Rokbeigalmki, and every so often i go back
to working on revamping the second one and finally finishing it,
hopefully.
I also have random information on various conlangy stuff:
The dialect chart of Gabwe i mentioned above,
http://bingweb.binghamton.edu/~bh11744/gabwe/Tiereans.jpg
An explanationless example of the Gabwe alphabet:
http://bingweb.binghamton.edu/~bh11744/gabwe/Gabwe.gif
Some obsolete examples of Judajca:
http://bingweb.binghamton.edu/~bh11744/judajca/jmiserab.gif
http://bingweb.binghamton.edu/~bh11744/judajca/judajca.gif

> How many of you have made soundbytes of your language so the rest of
> us can hear it?  If so, give the site.
-

I think i have at my first website.  Hopefully i'll get to record some
more, newer stuff in Rokbeigalmki soon.

> How many of you are comfortable talking to your boss, your
> professors, your
> family members about this pursuit?   How many of you have received
> condescending or other negative responses to your disclosure?  (I
> have.)  Or even been called "pathological"?
-

Have only gotten responses of the "ah, interesting...", "how weird!", and
"you're
a dork but we're your friends so we don't mind" kind.  Sometimes my
brother is interested in my conlanging, since after all we created our
first conlang together.  He also used to play with codes a lot when we
were younger.

> For how many of you is the damning statement "better to learn real
> languages
> than invent private ones" a criticism you have encountered?  What
> would be your response to such a remark?
-

Hmm... my response would probably be that's like saying "better to admire
already-created works of art than to create your own", which makes no
sense.

> PART V:  GENERAL DEMOGRAPHICS:
> What is your age (optional--and can be general: 30-40, for
> instance).
-

21

> What is your profession or your station in life (i.e., if you are a
> student,
> what is your MAJOR; if a middle or high-school student, what is
> your intended major)?
-

university student, majoring in Linguistics and in Judaic Studies.

> What is your gender?
-

male

> What is your nationality and your native language?
-

USA.  English.

> What natural languages do you speak or have studied?
-

(besides native language)
speak more-or-less well:
Hebrew, Spanish
have studied:
Yiddish, Arabic, Japanese
i also used to be good at understanding Talmudic Aramaic, and i can
understand written Ladino (Judeo-Spanish) at almost the level i speak
Spanish,
although i can only fake speaking Ladino a little.
this coming semester i'm planning on taking a basic intro course in Irish
Gaelic.

> How many of you have chosen a profession in linguistics because of
> your
> interest in inventing languages?  Or plan a profession in
> linguistics?
-

Naaa... although i decided to major in Linguistics because of conlanging!

> What have you learned from conlanging?
-

Lots of linguistic information about linguistics in general as well as
random facts about natural languages.  And i learned about lots of
different conlangs.

> What texts on language and linguistics have you consulted to help
> invent your language?
-

Not much... but i've used the information on Conlang a lot.

> Do you know of anyone who has not connected with the Internet or the
> List
> who has invented a language? (I'm firmly convinced that "conlanging"
> has
> been a private pursuit for many people long before the list started,
> but that the list has increased its visibility as an art).
-

Yes.  When i used to go on IRC and talk on chat channels about religion,
i met Chris Ashton who invented the conlang Vendi.  I told him about the
list but he wasn't interested in joining it.
Also, a freshman at my university recently told me that she used to play
with a personal language, although i haven't asked her anything about it
yet.  She also writes poetry; she says she likes structured classical
styles.

> Can you give me a short sample of your language with interlinear
> description and translation?
-

ROKBEIGALMKI POEM/SONG:

numyenaurkim uhmzu-elyeb,
numyenaur|ki|m uhmz|u-elyeb,
[numjEnO4kim Vmzu?EljEb]
numenor|[intr.adj]|[pl] they.e|[past]-come,
Numenoreans came,

The 'intrinsic adjective' suffix KI is used for descriptions that are
considered an intrinsic part of the described: nationalities, materials,
etc.  UHMZ is the 3rd person plural epicene pronoun, used for groups of
animates of unknown, immaterial, or mixed gender.

numyenaurkim oolu-sfãs;
numyenaur|ki|m ool|u-sfãs;
[numjEnO4kim }lusp\a::s]
numenor|[intr.adj]|[pl] [adj.v]|[past]-selfishness;
Numenoreans who became selfish;

Roots of primarily adjectival meaning, like SFÃS "selfishness", when used
as a verb mean 'to become...', and not 'to be...' like other languages
do.  Rokbeigalmki has a part of speech called the 'adjective-verb', which
describes a noun by a time-dependent action; in this case, the
Numenoreans are described as 'having become selfish'.  Using a simple
adjectival prefix would imply that they are always selfish, which would
be incorrect.

i uhmzu-peiwang ga'eilosm uhmzú.
i uhmz|u-peiwang ga'eilos|m uhmz|ú.
[i VmzupejwaN\ ga?ejlosm= Vmzu:]
and they.e|[past]-think that'god|[pl] they.e|[past].
and thought that they were gods.

Rokbeigalmki verbs are conjugated by attaching a subject pronoun and a
vowel marking the verb's tense to the root.  When a 'subject-tense
complex' is formed without attaching it to a root, it takes on default
meaning depending on context, and is moved to the end of the sentence
with stress on the final time vowel.  Here, UHMZÚ 'they (epicene) in the
past' means 'they were'.  In other contexts it could mean 'they went' or
'they did'.

akh báhhihr uzu-ghalub wa'laur uhmsh,
akh báhhihr uz|u-ghalub wa'laur uhmsh,
[ax ba:X\14 uzuGalub walO4 VmS]
but Ocean it|[past]-rise to'on them.e,
But Ocean rose up over them,

For concultural reasons, Rokbeigalmki can 'personalize' or
anthropomorphize inanimate objects and natural forces, treating them
grammatically as if they were names: BÁHHIHR 'Sun' instead of BAHHIHR-A
'the sun'.  However, also for concultural reasons, the personalized words
are still treated as inanimate, and refered to using the pronoun UZ 'it'.
WA'LAUR is a compound preposition, 'to on'.  Rokbeigalmki prepositions
are actually case prefixes, but when they are doubled-up like this, they
detach and the second prefix assumes its long noun form.

i uzu-brodak uhmsh wa'sháíl -
i uz|u-brodak uhmsh wa'sháíl -
[i uzub4odak VmS waSe:@l]
and it|[past]-trade them.e to'Underworld -
and traded them to Underworld -

The same personalizing is used here with SHÁÍL 'Underworld'.

fa'zanlm i fa'pyetikm,
fa'zan|l|m i fa'pyet|ik|m,
[fazanl=m= i fapjEtikm=]
for'murex|creature|[pl] and for'rock|[dim]|[pl],
for murex-shells and pebbles,

Many names of animals in Rokbeigalmki end with the semi-productive suffix
L found in ZANLM.  IK in PYETIK is a diminutive ending.

i fa'^ganmei^charzad.
i fa'^gan|m|ei|^charzad.
[i faganme:jtSa4za:d]
and for'^glitter|[pl]|[const]|^light.
and for glitterings of light.

Here we find a construct-compound, combining the words "glitterings" and
"light" to form a one-word phrase "glitterings of light" instead of
having to use separate words and the case prefix TZA' 'of'.  The final
vowel of each word in the compound is lengthened.

(i hope that's not too long)

> Would you object to my mentioning your conlang/and or your name in
> my talk?
> I will be discreet about some of the more personal questions you
> answered.
-

Naa, it's okay.  Go ahead.


-Stephen (Steg)
"there is darkness all around us;
  but if darkness *is*, and the darkness is of the forest,
  then the darkness must be good."
     ~ song of the BaMbuti in troubled times
       (one of the texts i've translated into rokbeigalmki)