Re: Futurese

En réponse à Javier BF <uaxuctum@...>:

> >
> >[k]/[g]
> >[t]/[d]
> >[p]/[b]/[h]/[P]
>
> [h] and [P] are allophones of just one consonant /h/,
> being [P] the allophone used when vowel /u/ follows.
>
No they aren't. Words with syllables like [Pa] and [Po] are common in modern
Japanese. Those two sounds are not allophones anymore.

> >[s]
> >[S]
>
> The same, just one consonant /s/, [S] is the
> allophone used when vowel /i/ follows.
>
You then forget the hundreds of Japanese words using syllables like [Sa], [So]
and [Su], contrasting with [sa], [so] and [su].

> >[ts]/[dz]
> >[tS]/[dZ]
>
> [ts] and [tS] are allophones of /t/, used respectively
> when vowel /u/ and vowel /i/ follows.
>
You forget then all the words using syllables like [tSa], [tSo] and [tSu], like
the very common and important word [tSa]: tea.

> [dz] and [dZ] are allophones of /d/, used respectively
> when vowel /u/ and vowel /i/ follows.
>
Idem, there are nowadays plenty of words with [dZa], [dZo] and [dZu], and [dz]
is now common with every vowel.

> >[w]/[j]
> >[n]/[m]/[N] (though the last one is not phonemic but an allophone of
> /n/
> before
>
> Then, please don't count [N] as a Japanese consonant.
>
Okay, one less. Still, my other counts still fit.

> >[k] or [g])
> >[4]
>
> What ASCIIfication are you using? I don't know what
> sound you're referring to with [4].
>
Alveolar flap, Spanish |r| between two vowels.

>
> >and [B] or [v] for some people in loanwords.
>
> If you count the sounds used in loanwords, then Spanish
> uses consonant sh.
>
Well, why should we give loanwords a special status when they are used as often
as native words? The origin of the words is pointless. Their use is the only
thing that matters.

>
> Japanese consonants are:
> /p/, /b/, /m/, /t/, /d/, /n/, /k/, /g/, /h/, /s/ and /r/
>
That was true 100 years ago (and even then, the Chinese loanwords that were in
the language for already centuries make that analysis caduque). But we're in
the 21st century, and it's the Japanese language of now that we're talking
about. You should get your references updated.

> I would consider the combinations with [w] and [j]
> as diphthongs much rather than considering [w] and
> [j] as consonants.
But that doesn't fit the language. If they are diphtongues, why can't they be
used with consonants, since a diphtongue counts as one vowel?

 But even if you consider them as
> consonants, the total amount of Japanese consonants
> would remain at 13, way far from 27. Well, and if
> you also consider the glottal stop as a separate
> consonant, then the total would be 14.
>
No, since your analysis is flawed. The consonants you presented are not the
only phonemic consonants of Japanese (or else you'll have to explain me how the
Japanese contrast words like |da|: to be and |ja|: good bye, or between |ta|:
field and |cha|: tea).

Christophe.

http://rainbow.conlang.free.fr

Take your life as a movie: do not let anybody else play the leading role.

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