Re: Language comparison

I was truly hoping that the "broad area of agreement" I outlined in my
last mail would help bring this thread to an end. {Sigh} It has not and,
indeed, as Paul Bennett has observed the thread has gone beyond discussion
and into dogma. So let me make myself perfectly clear: *This is my last
mail in this tedious thread*.

On Monday, January 10, 2005, at 09:31 , Sai Emrys wrote:

>> Right - hence the confusion. So we are talking about 'languages'
>> specifically designed by humans (formal languages), rather than about
>> natural languages, are we?
>
> No. "Human language" = "languages used by/between humans". Which
> includes natural and constructed languages, and is unlikely to include
> formal languages.
Why? They are used by humans.

This, it seems to me, has been one of the problems all along, it has
simply not been clear to me what you do & do not include in the term
"human languages".

[snip]
>> Maybe not - what I meant is that the approach you appear to be taking
>> would, if translated into a conlang project, seem to suggest an engelang.
>> I was suggesting, in fact, getting 'on topic'    :)
>
> Sure; another time. Different topic, is all.
By "on topic" I mean what is normally meant by the term on this list,
namely "pertaining to language construction". This thread seems to be
encompassing just about every form of communication and to have a lot more
to do with semiotics than linguistics.

[snip]
>> Yes, yes - this works fine for formal languages - the where people like
>> Mach, I & some others disagree strongly is the idea that natural
>> languages
>> can be successfully evaluated in such a way.
>
> Even if you take a set of criteria by which to evaluate them?
Please read the excellent email Paul Bennett wrote on Monday, January 10,
2005, at 01:22.

I won't quote it all here, but I think Paul's final two paragraphs may be
profitably repeated:
"Thus, the quality of every human language is immeasurable, and probably
indenumerable, and as far as I'm concerned, all immeasurable values are
indistinguishable.

"That will be my final word on the subject. Please, please, please, take
this off list. Discussions of optimality are well and good, but we're
getting beyond discussion and into dogma, and that is never fun for
someone outside the conversation to read. Kill it."

AMEN!

Ray
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http://home.freeuk.com/ray.brown
ray.brown@freeuk.com
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Anything is possible in the fabulous Celtic twilight,
which is not so much a twilight of the gods
as of the reason."      [JRRT, "English and Welsh" ]