CHAT: Visigoths (was: YADPT (D=Dutch))

On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 12:19 AM, Andreas Johansson wrote:

[snip]

> Hm, the Latin pl seems to be _uisigothae_, which ought to suggest
> _uisigotha_
> as sg, oughtn't it? I know, however, that I've seen _gothus_ as a Latin
> singular, so I better confess I'm not entirely clear what's going on.
Latin forms of Visigoth are post-Classical.  If the plural is _uisigothae_
then the singular
is indeed _uisigotha_.   The ending might have been influenced by names of
other
ancient peoples such as the _Celtae_ and _Galatae_ etc.  But _uisigothi_
is also found.

_gothus_ is certainly attested in the Classical period, though not till a
late period.
Possibly they were also called _gotho:nes_ or _goto:nes by Tacitus, and
Gu:tones by Pliny; though some argue, apparently, that the latter two
writers were
referring to the_Getae_ in the area of Prussia or modern Lithuania.
Who knows?

What's going on is simply a difference in Latinizing a non-Latin Ethnicon.
There was no "Academia Latina" to decide such things  :)
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On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:05 AM, John Cowan wrote:

> Andreas Johansson scripsit:
>
>> The exact meaning of _visi-_ seems to be unknown - several sources says
>> it may mean "noble", which sounds like a self-chosen designation. No
>> indication what language it may be from, which I guess suggests it is
>> indeed Gothic.
>
> The traditional interpretation of "Visigoth" and "Ostrogoth" are that they
> mean West Goth and East Goth respectively, which certainly fits the facts.
> Has there been some reason to reject this?
Well, yes.  uisi- doesn't really fit well with Germanic words for 'west',
'western' etc.
The Ostrogoths (Latinized variously as _ostrogothi_, _autrogothi_ - the
letter
perhaps through mistaken folk etymology linking it with Latin 'auster'
[south,
south wind]), and which I've seen anglicized as Ostergoths (surely
'Eastergoths'
would be better) are almost certainly the eastern Goths.

But when I first encountered 'Visigoth' in my teens I was puzzled how the
Romans could possibly have mangled a Germanic *westr- to _uisi_.  One would
surely have expected the Latin to be have been *uestrogothi (or even, with
folk etymology, the odd occurrence of *uesprogothi/ *uesprigothi) - we find
no such thing.

My dictionary hedges it bets and says:
"Late latin _Visigothi_ - Gmc. word meaning perh. noble Goths, perh. west
Goths"

Several Google searches today revealed that the 'noble Goth' or 'valiant
Goth'
meaning has quite a following.  But I couldn't find anyone quoting the
actual
Germanic word!  Is it cognate with English "wise".

Do we have any Germanicists who can enlighten us?

Ray
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