Re: CHAT: Visigoths (was: YADPT (D=Dutch))

Quoting Ray Brown <ray.brown@...>:

> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 12:19 AM, Andreas Johansson wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > Hm, the Latin pl seems to be _uisigothae_, which ought to suggest
> > _uisigotha_
> > as sg, oughtn't it? I know, however, that I've seen _gothus_ as a Latin
> > singular, so I better confess I'm not entirely clear what's going on.
>
> Latin forms of Visigoth are post-Classical.  If the plural is _uisigothae_
> then the singular
> is indeed _uisigotha_.   The ending might have been influenced by names of
> other
> ancient peoples such as the _Celtae_ and _Galatae_ etc.  But _uisigothi_
> is also found.
>
> _gothus_ is certainly attested in the Classical period, though not till a
> late period.
> Possibly they were also called _gotho:nes_ or _goto:nes by Tacitus, and
> Gu:tones by Pliny; though some argue, apparently, that the latter two
> writers were
> referring to the_Getae_ in the area of Prussia or modern Lithuania.
Would those be the same as the Danubian _Getae_, whom Jordanes confused with
the Goths?

> What's going on is simply a difference in Latinizing a non-Latin Ethnicon.
> There was no "Academia Latina" to decide such things  :)
What's the Gothic form of "goth" anyway?

> ==========================================================================
> On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 02:05 AM, John Cowan wrote:
>
> > Andreas Johansson scripsit:
> >
> >> The exact meaning of _visi-_ seems to be unknown - several sources says
> >> it may mean "noble", which sounds like a self-chosen designation. No
> >> indication what language it may be from, which I guess suggests it is
> >> indeed Gothic.
> >
> > The traditional interpretation of "Visigoth" and "Ostrogoth" are that they
> > mean West Goth and East Goth respectively, which certainly fits the facts.
> > Has there been some reason to reject this?
>
> Well, yes.  uisi- doesn't really fit well with Germanic words for 'west',
> 'western' etc.
> The Ostrogoths (Latinized variously as _ostrogothi_, _autrogothi_
Let's not forget _ostrogothae_ ...

> ), and which I've seen anglicized as Ostergoths (surely
> 'Eastergoths'
> would be better) are almost certainly the eastern Goths.
I can only repeat that sources I normally consider reliable in these matters
say they most probably are not.

BTW, did _austr-_ go ninety digrees anticlockwise and at some point? Austria
and Austrasia must surely refer to these being _eastern_ places, not southern
ones. Or are they just cases of superficial latinization?

                                                         Andreas

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