Re: What counts as a basic color word?

michael poxon <m.poxon@...> wrote :

> There's another Welsh word for green, which is 'ir', and brown also intrudes
> on 'coch' (red). Ir is in there more or less alongside gwyrdd, but it just
> refers (referred?) to different materials that are green, rather than a
> spectrum difference, a phenomenon (which surely just can't be confined to
> Welsh!)
I haven't seen _ir_ used for "green" as such, it's basic meaning is
"fresh" so the semantic drift is easy to understand. Since I've got a
Welsh dictionary on the desk just now ... here we are ...
IR : IRAIDD, a. yn llawn sudd (full of juice), ffres (fresh), gwyrdd
(green).
   Fresh, Green, succulent
I wouldn't really call this a colour word, though it could easily become
one, and for all I know may have done so in some dialects. Its cognate
in Scots Gaelic, _u:r_ as well as meaning "fresh" is the usual word for
"new" and has completely replaced _nuadh_ (cf Irish _nua_) except in a
few place names like Alba Nuadh (Nova Scotia), New York etc.

> From: "Chris Bates" <christopher.bates@...>
>> the list of 11 basic colours they suggested by the way:
>>
>>
>> And how welsh used to divide the green brown part of the spectrum:
>>
>>      green       |  blue |     grey       |  brown
>> ---------------------------------------
>> gwyrdd  |         glas          |    llwyd
>>
>> I just got this out of one of my books, so if its wrong please tell me
>> and I'll make a note somewhere lol.
AFAIK _glas_ is always used to describe green vegetation, whereas
non-vegetables are _gwyrdd_. I've seen both words used to translate "The
Green Party". To a native speaker _Y Blaidd Las_ would probably be the
first choice, but to someone with L1 English this would be "The Blue
Party", presumably the Tories! (Not much in favour in Celtic bits of
Britain). Hence _Y Blaidd Werdd_ (or _(g)wyrdd_ depending on just how
bad their Welsh is) but this suggest green paint etc and doesn't sound
at all environmental. (The same problem exists in Cornwall, and I assume
Britany where the usage is similar).
When _glas_ means "grey" it's sort of blue-grey, whereas _llwyd_ is
whiteish grey, hence "grey haired" is always _llwyd_.
Scots G. has _gorm_ for blue, pushing _glas_ over into blue/grey with
_liath_ (= llwyd) still meaning grey/white, grey hair etc. Whereas in
Welsh _gwrm_ means very dark blue or brown, or just "dark coloured",
"black"!
At which point you seriously start to wonder whether each flavour of
Celts inherited their own peculiar form of colourblindness :-)

Keith Mylchreest