Re: Strategies for disambiguating ad*
|From:||Roger Mills <rfmilly@...>|
|Date:||Wednesday, June 28, 2006, 19:23|
Eldin Raigmore wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:12:04 +1000, Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@...>
> >Here I'd like to note that before joining this list I'd never
> >heard of the Topic - Comment structure....
Possibly due to analyzing and teaching languages according to Latin-based
theories: There must be a subject!!
It's always amusing to see old grammars of Malay, for inst., giving
elaborate tables of Nominative, Genitiive, Dative, Accusative etc. forms--
but the word has the same form in every case. (Older grammars of Western
langs. too have been guilty of this, so it's not just non-Western langs.
that get the treatment.)
but it seems such
> >a good fit to the patterns we see, that I'm now often torn
> >between analysing a given (head-initial) sentence as Topic,
> >Comment OR as Subject, Predicate.
I think it's true that Ml/Indon. and others are particularly fuzzy in this
> .... But FWIW based on the writings of authors who site that paper, I'd
> say that
> topic-prominence is probably an areal feature of the linguistic areas
> containing the natlangs you are asking about.
Possibly an areal phenomenon. It may also have to do with the general
tendency to omit subject pronouns, and usual lack of overt subj. markers on
the verb (e.g. Spanish cant-o/as/a).
Buginese (I suspect ult. rather closely related to Ml.) does use subject
affixes (and object too in some cases):
manasui berre? 'she cooks/cooked (some) rice (indef.)'
nanasui berre?é 'she cooks/cooked the rice (def.)'
berre?é rinasui 'the rice was cooked'
rice-def ri-PASS....-I 3/subj.
rinasui berre?é -- probably OK too.
(I don't recall whether you can have an indef. subj. here)
(It's possible, though apparently rare, to express the agent...our informant
hesitated a long time, finally came up with "berre?é rinasui ri Siti" 'the
rice was cooked by Siti'-- IIRC he did say that it was impossible to express
a _pronoun_ agent in this way-- you'd have to revert to the active form.)
The street-name-change sentence would thus probably have to be:
lalengéro [intonation break=topic], asenna ri-[change]-i mancaji...
street-def-that name-its (was changed) become...
Here, as in the Ml. ex (I claimed).. 'its name' is actually the "subject" of
the passive verb.
With permissible word-order changes, as also in the Ml. ex., "lalengéro,
ri[change]i asenna mancaji..." would probably be OK too.
And a straight SV-passive version: asenna lalengéro ri[change]i...
'The name of that street was changed..."
And an active version: na[change]i asenna lalengéro... '(they) changed the
name of that street...'
Actually western languages can topicalize too, but often require additional
(As for) John, he went to Yale.... ~(As for) John, I really like him. etc.
Span. en cuanto a... Fr. quant à... (resumptive pronouns usually required,
Our schoolmarms railed against those who said "John, he..." :-(
I may have overlooked another, better, Kash possibility-- you can give the
sentence a "passive" appearance and interpretation, even though it remains
active, by fronting the object ("its name")--"that street" would still be
ratu yu, arañi irucunu yukar...
street that, name-its they-changed become...
OR SV, not Topic/Comment:
arañi ratu yu irucunu yukar...
name-its street that they-changed become...
(After my experience with NO PASSIVE Kash, I've given Gwr a passive voice,
though its uses are not yet fully clear.)
(snip useful Google refs.)