Re: Nur-ellen in the world of Brithenig (was Re: Nur-ellen universes)

On Tue, 29 Aug 2000, Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:

>Me govanen!
>
>andrew wrote:
>>
>> Am 08/27 01:18  J?rg Rhiemeier yscrifef:
>>
>> > Thank you for "officially" adopting my language into your universe!
>> >
>> You're welcome.
>
>OK.  So we can now work out the details ;-)  And another conlang of
>independent origin joins the line-up!  (Is there a list of languages
>spoken *there* available on the Net?  If not, let's compile on here in
>the list!)
I know of Brithenig, Kerno, Breathanach, that Sarnian tongue, um,
something Celtic out in Middle America somewhere... Oh yes, er,
Wessic in, of all places, Wight.

>Are their also maps (both political and linguistic) of Britain, Europe,
>the world *there*?
There's only a map of Kemr; on account of the fact that we're
lazy geographers. Also we don't really know precisely what all
the other countries look like.

>> > [Nur-ellen speakers vs. fairies]
>> >
>> Accepted.  _Lla ffefil deg_ is a calque of Welsh Tylwyth Teg, the only
>> fairy or elf name I have found that I could adopt into Brithenig to my
>> satisfaction.  It appears that in this late Age Eldar analogies are very
>> rare in popular belief.  As yet I have not adopted a word that describes
>> Tolkienian Elves.
>
>Is the concept alive *there* at all (other than in the shape of the
>Nur-ellen folk), or buried in old mythology?  I mean, there might not be
>an equivalent to JRRT *there*.
Oo, we'd ammend that crossdimensional incongruence!

>
>>       And I agree, Beaker Folk descendents or Nur-ellen
>> speakers should not be described as 'fairies, Fair Family, etc.'
>
>Certainly!
>
>BTW: Does Kemr include what *here* is Warwickshire and Staffordshire?
Where be they? The map is at <polaris.umuc.edu/~pbrown/map.jpg>
or was last I checked.

>(It seems so judging from the description of the boundary on your page.)
>I ask this because this way, both Mindon Gwar (Nur-ellen Mind`n War,
>English Warwick) and Tavrobel (Nur-ellen Tavrob`l, English Great
>Haywood) would be in Kemr.  They could be decent-sized cities (perhaps
>about 100,000-200,000 each)
>with substantial Nur-ellen speaking minorities.  What would they be
>named in Brithenig?  Are the Brithenig names translations of the
>Nur-ellen names (Mind`n War means "watchtower", Tavrob`l means
>"forest-town") or adaptations to Brithenig pronunciation of spelling
>(which would give something like "Mindyn War" and "Tafrobyl")?
>
>How strong can the "Elvish" element be in Kemr?  How many people still
>speak Nur-ellen, and how alive is their original culture?
>I can imagine that there is some kind of "Elvish Heritage Revival
>Movement" of young (and not-so-young) people seeking a better life who
>study the ancient (pre-Celtic!) culture of the Elves (I imagine those
>pre-Celtic Elves to have been culturally actually quite similar to
>Tolkien's, even though they were not immortal or anything), worship Eru,
>celebrate festivals at the old sites (such as the Stonehenge or the one
Ah, for that they'd be travelling down my way!

>in the city centre of Tavrob`l - right in the heart of the city, there
>is a circular open space surrounded by standing stones and tall trees) -
>and learn the Nur-ellen language.
>
>I think this could enrich the Brithenig timeline, but it should not be
>overdone.
>Viewed from a strict alternative history viewpoint, we are walking on
>*very* thin ice here, as we are speculating about remnants of a
Mm. Where was the ice thick, I wonder? ;)

>civilization that predates the Celtic invasion and is almost completely
>unknown to the historians *here* who have found little more than a few
>pieces of pottery and consider the attempts of a certain English scholar
>to reconstruct their languages to be pure fiction.
Well. It is obviously a bit better known *there*, then!

>
>> > Of course, Nur-ellen *there* will differ from Nur-ellen *here*.
>> > [...]
>> > atombomb "atomic bomb", lager "concentration camp", katset "ibid.",
>> > natsi "Nazi", kernkraftverk "nuclear power station", brenshtab "nuclear
>> > fuel rod",
>> > and quite a number of others.
>> >
>> > The language has also borrowed from English, Welsh, Irish and other
>> > languages.
>
>Possibly also from Hebrew, Yiddish and Romani.
>
>> > Nur-ellen *there* certainly has a different set of borrowings, including
>> > many from Brithenig.  How parallel is the history of continental Europe
>> > *there*?  Was there a Nazi Germany, for instance?
>> >
>> There were 'Great Wars' in Europe in the Brithenig time-line, at least
>> two.  The history of these events have not yet been ascertained.
>
>According to Padraig's post, there was a German Empire which seems to me
>to have caused trouble *there* as well even if they weren't Nazis.  So
>perhaps the German borrowings exist in Nur-ellen *there* as well?
I think it still _is_.

Padraic.

>
>Syld,
>Joerg.
>