Relay: 12. From Doraya to Elet Anta
| From: | Sally Caves <scaves@...> |
|---|
| Date: | Sunday, December 5, 1999, 20:27 |
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John Fisher wrote:
> The poem as Adam sent it to me was quite Anta-ish in its way
> of looking at things, so it wasn't too hard. The only bit
> that presented a difficulty was
>
> > tali kes enyr ar matos lun sao tata erin
> > tali kes enyr ar matos lun sao tata erin
> > child that darkness with fear cover RES-N 3ps-3ps see
> > 'The child that covers the darkness with fear, she sees him/her'
>
> I couldn't really tell what was doing the covering and
> what was covered. However it seemed more likely that the
> the child was covered with fear by the darkness, and that's
> what I translated.
>
> Notice that by the time it reached me the interlinear had
> acquired a smooth English translation of each line, which I
> think may have biased me. I didn't know if this was the
> right thing to do but in the end I did the same.
(Sorry, I erased your interlinear translation of the Doraya!)
> Here's what I sent on to Fabian:
>
> -------------------- My mail to Fabian --------------------
> The Elet Anta version
> ---------------------
>
> "Arnye mura cos erdi melonsurtoy is-inirsura"
>
> Ce brufa, cwur lhos torvaye halantsara, Iva lovet ura;
> Ce imis, cwur sacar torvaye forucisa, Iva lovet ura;
> Do-pe-trisuy' urfasurkaw cof hartha Iva lovetwa;
> Yafgaw ant anel incwaro ya, arnye mura torvawa lovet anta.
>
> Ce althan, cwal cos varad umusa, Iva celtis ala;
> Ce cesper, cwalaaw nuvsa cos sopot lhenggasara, Iva celtis lawa;
> Ce alepenye cwaylasuye vertsu, Iva celtis suma;
> Yacsaw ant anel incwaro ya, arnye mura torvawa celtis anta.
I'm putting your smooth translation all together here:
The great mother created this poem about stories.
The wind which causes good health, She listens to it.
The water which produces good food, She listens to it.
Because of the unwanted distance, listening She is made unhappy.
Then let us declare that the great mother listens to us well.
The tree that strengthens the home, She sees it.
The child, which darkness covers with fear, she sees it.
The end of the love of couples, she sees it.
So let us declare that the great mother sees us well.
> Notes
> -----
>
> ** ATR: this suffix indicates that the noun or verb qualifies
> a noun
> ADV: this suffix indicates that the noun or verb qualifies
> a verb
> ACC: this suffix indicates the object of a verb
>
> ** Elet Anta doesn't have pronouns as such - instead it has shortened
> nouns, which are used as pronouns and in relatives (and other
> places, but not here). Like: law "child", used to mean he/she
> (of children), and in cwalaw: who (when it's a child). Similarly
> al (for trees). Also su, for words like vertsu, which is the
> noun from vert "come to an end". Also Iva (for female deities).
>
> ** EMB: This morpheme stands for the whole of the preceding (or
> sometimes following) clause
>
> ** ce: In Elet Anta, you can't just have a noun phrase by itself;
> there must be a verb or what's called a citation word. Ce
> is a citation word, meaning something like "as for", or
> "with regard to"; but when you translate it to English
> you can often just omit it
>
> Dreaded Interlinear
> -------------------
>
> Arnye mura cos erdi melonsurtoy is-inirsura
> be.great-ATR mother cause exist story-about-ATR the-poem-ACC
> 'The great mother created this poem about stories.'
>
> This is the title of the poem.
> melon 'tell'; melonsu 'story'; -irto 'be about'
> inir 'make poetry'; inirsur 'poem'
> cos erdi: 'cause to exist' = create
>
> Ce brufa, cwur lhos torvaye halantsara, Iva lovet ura
> as.for wind REL-it cause be.good-ATR health-ACC She listen.to it-ACC
> 'The wind which causes good health, She listens to it'
>
> Ce: see notes
> cwur: a relative made from ur, a short noun for things in general
> halant: 'be healthy'; halantsa: 'health' - usually you don't need
> 'good' with that, but I've left it in for emphasis
> Iva: see notes
>
> Ce imis, cwur sacar torvaye forucisa, Iva lovet ura
> as.for water, REL-it produce be.good-ATR food-ACC She listen.to it-ACC
> 'The water which produces good food, She listens to it'
>
> Do-pe-trisuy' urfasurkaw cof hartha Iva lovetwa
> not-PASS-want-ATR distance-because-ADV be.made unhappy She listen-ADV
> 'Because of the unwanted distance, listening She is made unhappy'
>
> trisu: 'want'; do-pe-trisuye: 'unwanted': pe is a passive indicator
> the final e is elided before the following vowel
> urfa: 'be far'; urfasu 'distance'; arka 'be because of'
> urfasurkaw: 'because of the distance'
> lovet: 'listen'; lovetwa: 'when listening, in the listening'
>
> Yafgaw ant anel incwaro ya, arnye mura
> EMB-after-ADV we IMP declare EMB-ACC be.great-ATR mother
> torvawa lovet anta
> good-ADV listen.to we-ACC
> 'Then let us declare than the great mother listens to us well'
>
> yafgaw: 'after that'; often used similarly to English 'then'
> IMP: imperative marker
> ya: makes the next clause the object of the verb incwaro
>
> Ce althan, cwal cos varad umusa, Iva celtis ala
> as.for tree REL-tree cause be.strong home-ACC She see tree-ACC
> 'The tree that strengthens the home, She sees it'
>
> althan: the short noun to use with trees is al, hence...
> cwal: relative for trees
> varad: 'be strong'; cos varad 'strengthen'
> ala: it (object) (for trees)
>
> Ce cesper, cwalaaw nuvsa cos sopot lhenggasara,
> as.for child REL-child+DEF darkness cause cover fear-ACC
> Iva celtis lawa
> She see child-ACC
> 'The child, which darkness covers with fear, She sees it'
>
> cesper: 'child'; the short noun to use with children is law
> cwalaw: relative for children
> sopot: 'to cover'; cos sopot 'make to cover'
> Instead of 'cover X with Y', Elet Anta says 'make Y cover X'
> As usual with cos, the Y has an ACC ending, and the X is in
> another form, the definitive. That's why it's cwalaaw, not
> cwalaw. The literal translation is "The child, which darkness
> makes fear to cover..."
> lhengga: 'to fear'; lhenggasa 'fear'
> lawa: he/she (object) (for children)
>
> Ce alepenye cwaylasuye vertsu, Iva celtis suma
> as.for couple-ATR love-ATR end, She see it-ACC
> 'The end of the love of couples, She sees it'
>
> alepen: means 'a couple of lovers' (ie, sexual lovers)
> cwayla: 'be in love (sexually)'; cwaylasu: a state of being in
> passionate love
> vert: 'come to an end'; vertsu 'end'
> suma: su is the short noun for vertsu; here with ACC suffix
>
> Yacsaw ant anel incwaro ya, arnye mura torvawa
> EMB-because-ADV we IMP declare EMB-ACC be.great-ATR mother good-ADV
> celtis anta
> see we-ACC
> 'So let us declare that the great mother sees us well'
>
> yacsaw: 'because of this, therefore'
> -------------------- End of my mail to Fabian --------------------
>
> --John
>
> --
> John Fisher john@drummond.demon.co.uk johnf@epcc.ed.ac.uk
--
============================================================
SALLY CAVES
scaves@frontiernet.net
http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves (bragpage)
http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/teonaht.html (T. homepage)
http://www.frontiernet.net/~scaves/contents.html (all else)
=====================================================================
Niffodyr tweluenrem lis teuim an.
"The gods have retractible claws."
from _The Gospel of Bastet_
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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 02:04:19 +0000
To: FFlores <fflores@...>
Cc: Sally Caves <scaves@...>,
Boudewijn Rempt <bsarempt@...>,
Steg Belsky <draqonfayir@...>,
Irina Rempt-Drijfhout <ira@...>,
Andrew Smith <hobbit@...>,
Josh Roth <Fuscian@...>,
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Rob Nierse <rnierse@...>,
Dirk Elzinga <dirk.elzinga@...>,
Dennis Paul Himes <dennis@...>,
Nicole Perrin <nicole.perrin@...>, Adam Parrish <myth@...>,
Fabian <rhialto@...>, John Cowan <cowan@...>,
Terrence Donnelly <pag000@...>,
Patrick Dunn <tb0pwd1@...>, Nik Taylor <fortytwo@...>,
Paul Bennett <Paul.Bennett@...>,
Jeffrey Henning <Jeffrey@...>,
Christopher Grandsire <grandsir@...>
From: John Fisher <john@...>
Subject: Relay: Doraya to Elet Anta
In-Reply-To: <0fb3852140117b9MAIL1@...>
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Hi--
Okay, as the rest of the week looks like being pretty much
of a disaster for me I'd better do this now. Sorry for
being out of the running order. I'll post to the Little
List - I hope this is okay.
Adam sent me following:
-------------------- Adam's mail --------------------
The Doraya translation, using a new and experimental syntax:
"dimami ana tyekar lidrin ae kira ade inralai"
faril kes el maya laran sao tasa radya
sai kes pir maya laran sao tasa radya
kekur maron lakatado kur sae tesanerdo da tai ae tueradya
ui sa aeyneda de mami ana sanda tara radya
galai kes dyrn da aran laran sao tasa erin
tali kes enyr ar matos lun sao tata erin
kiril ae lia ae inilysyra tasa erin
de sa aeyneda de mami ana sanda tara erin.
---
And now, a line by line morpheme by morpheme interlinear translation:
dimami ana tyekar lidrin ae kira ade inralai
dimami ana tyekar li.drin ae kira ade in.ralai
past.mother great perf.create this-hand of poetry about stories
The great mother created this poem about stories.
(This is the title of the poem. _drin ae kira_ 'hand of poetry' is an
idiom for 'poem')
faril kes el maya laran sao tasa radya
faril kes el maya laran sao tasa radya
wind that health good give RES-N 3ps-3pn hear
'The wind that gives good health, she hears it.'
(_sao_ is a resumptive pronoun; _tasa_ is a contraction of the
pronouns _tai_ 'he/she' and _sae_ 'it'. The _ta_ in _tasa_ could mean
'he' or 'she,' but I take it to refer to the 'great mother' in the
title, so I translate it as 'she.')
sai kes pir maya laran sao tasa radya
sai kes pir maya laran sao tasa radya
water that food good give RES-N 3ps-3pn hear
'The water that gives good food, she hears it.'
kekur maron lakatado kur sae tesaner da tai ae tueradya
kekur maron laka-ta-do kur sae tesaner da tai ae tue-radya
because distance unwanted makes it unhappiness to her of listening
'Because the unwanted distance, it causes unhappiness to her that
listens'
ui sa aeyneda de mami ana sanda tara radya
ui sa aeyneda de mami ana sanda tara radya
then one declare that mother great well 3ps-1pp listens
'Then let's declare that the great mother listens to us well'
galai kes dyrn da aran laran sao tasa erin
galai kes dyrn da aran laran sao ta-sa erin
tree that strength to home give RES-N 3ps-3pn see
'The tree that gives strength to the home, she sees it'
tali kes enyr ar matos lun sao tata erin
tali kes enyr ar matos lun sao tata erin
child that darkness with fear cover RES-N 3ps-3ps see
'The child that covers the darkness with fear, she sees him/her'
kiril ae lia ae inilysyra tasa erin
kiril ae lia ae inilysyra tasa erin
end of passion of lovers 3ps-3pn sees
'The end of the passion of the lovers, she sees it'
de sa aeyneda de mami ana tanda tara erin.
de sa aeyneda de mami ana sanda tara erin.
so one declare that mother great well 3ps-1pp see
'So let's declare that the great mother sees well.'
-------------------- End of Adam's mail --------------------
The poem as Adam sent it to me was quite Anta-ish in its way
of looking at things, so it wasn't too hard. The only bit
that presented a difficulty was
> tali kes enyr ar matos lun sao tata erin
> tali kes enyr ar matos lun sao tata erin
> child that darkness with fear cover RES-N 3ps-3ps see
> 'The child that covers the darkness with fear, she sees him/her'
I couldn't really tell what was doing the covering and
what was covered. However it seemed more likely that the
the child was covered with fear by the darkness, and that's
what I translated.
Notice that by the time it reached me the interlinear had
acquired a smooth English translation of each line, which I
think may have biased me. I didn't know if this was the
right thing to do but in the end I did the same.
Here's what I sent on to Fabian:
-------------------- My mail to Fabian --------------------
The Elet Anta version
---------------------
"Arnye mura cos erdi melonsurtoy is-inirsura"
Ce brufa, cwur lhos torvaye halantsara, Iva lovet ura;
Ce imis, cwur sacar torvaye forucisa, Iva lovet ura;
Do-pe-trisuy' urfasurkaw cof hartha Iva lovetwa;
Yafgaw ant anel incwaro ya, arnye mura torvawa lovet anta.
Ce althan, cwal cos varad umusa, Iva celtis ala;
Ce cesper, cwalaaw nuvsa cos sopot lhenggasara, Iva celtis lawa;
Ce alepenye cwaylasuye vertsu, Iva celtis suma;
Yacsaw ant anel incwaro ya, arnye mura torvawa celtis anta.
Notes
-----
** ATR: this suffix indicates that the noun or verb qualifies
a noun
ADV: this suffix indicates that the noun or verb qualifies
a verb
ACC: this suffix indicates the object of a verb
** Elet Anta doesn't have pronouns as such - instead it has shortened
nouns, which are used as pronouns and in relatives (and other
places, but not here). Like: law "child", used to mean he/she
(of children), and in cwalaw: who (when it's a child). Similarly
al (for trees). Also su, for words like vertsu, which is the
noun from vert "come to an end". Also Iva (for female deities).
** EMB: This morpheme stands for the whole of the preceding (or
sometimes following) clause
** ce: In Elet Anta, you can't just have a noun phrase by itself;
there must be a verb or what's called a citation word. Ce
is a citation word, meaning something like "as for", or
"with regard to"; but when you translate it to English
you can often just omit it
Dreaded Interlinear
-------------------
Arnye mura cos erdi melonsurtoy is-inirsura
be.great-ATR mother cause exist story-about-ATR the-poem-ACC
'The great mother created this poem about stories.'
This is the title of the poem.
melon 'tell'; melonsu 'story'; -irto 'be about'
inir 'make poetry'; inirsur 'poem'
cos erdi: 'cause to exist' = create
Ce brufa, cwur lhos torvaye halantsara, Iva lovet ura
as.for wind REL-it cause be.good-ATR health-ACC She listen.to it-ACC
'The wind which causes good health, She listens to it'
Ce: see notes
cwur: a relative made from ur, a short noun for things in general
halant: 'be healthy'; halantsa: 'health' - usually you don't need
'good' with that, but I've left it in for emphasis
Iva: see notes
Ce imis, cwur sacar torvaye forucisa, Iva lovet ura
as.for water, REL-it produce be.good-ATR food-ACC She listen.to it-ACC
'The water which produces good food, She listens to it'
Do-pe-trisuy' urfasurkaw cof hartha Iva lovetwa
not-PASS-want-ATR distance-because-ADV be.made unhappy She listen-ADV
'Because of the unwanted distance, listening She is made unhappy'
trisu: 'want'; do-pe-trisuye: 'unwanted': pe is a passive indicator
the final e is elided before the following vowel
urfa: 'be far'; urfasu 'distance'; arka 'be because of'
urfasurkaw: 'because of the distance'
lovet: 'listen'; lovetwa: 'when listening, in the listening'
Yafgaw ant anel incwaro ya, arnye mura
EMB-after-ADV we IMP declare EMB-ACC be.great-ATR mother
torvawa lovet anta
good-ADV listen.to we-ACC
'Then let us declare than the great mother listens to us well'
yafgaw: 'after that'; often used similarly to English 'then'
IMP: imperative marker
ya: makes the next clause the object of the verb incwaro
Ce althan, cwal cos varad umusa, Iva celtis ala
as.for tree REL-tree cause be.strong home-ACC She see tree-ACC
'The tree that strengthens the home, She sees it'
althan: the short noun to use with trees is al, hence...
cwal: relative for trees
varad: 'be strong'; cos varad 'strengthen'
ala: it (object) (for trees)
Ce cesper, cwalaaw nuvsa cos sopot lhenggasara,
as.for child REL-child+DEF darkness cause cover fear-ACC
Iva celtis lawa
She see child-ACC
'The child, which darkness covers with fear, She sees it'
cesper: 'child'; the short noun to use with children is law
cwalaw: relative for children
sopot: 'to cover'; cos sopot 'make to cover'
Instead of 'cover X with Y', Elet Anta says 'make Y cover X'
As usual with cos, the Y has an ACC ending, and the X is in
another form, the definitive. That's why it's cwalaaw, not
cwalaw. The literal translation is "The child, which darkness
makes fear to cover..."
lhengga: 'to fear'; lhenggasa 'fear'
lawa: he/she (object) (for children)
Ce alepenye cwaylasuye vertsu, Iva celtis suma
as.for couple-ATR love-ATR end, She see it-ACC
'The end of the love of couples, She sees it'
alepen: means 'a couple of lovers' (ie, sexual lovers)
cwayla: 'be in love (sexually)'; cwaylasu: a state of being in
passionate love
vert: 'come to an end'; vertsu 'end'
suma: su is the short noun for vertsu; here with ACC suffix
Yacsaw ant anel incwaro ya, arnye mura torvawa
EMB-because-ADV we IMP declare EMB-ACC be.great-ATR mother good-ADV
celtis anta
see we-ACC
'So let us declare that the great mother sees us well'
yacsaw: 'because of this, therefore'
-------------------- End of my mail to Fabian --------------------
--John
--
John Fisher john@drummond.demon.co.uk johnf@epcc.ed.ac.uk
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