Re: question - Turco-Japanese (a thought experiment for the group here)

Rodlox/Andreas wrote:

> Quoting Rodlox <Rodlox@...>:
> >  I once read that the bulk of Chingis Khaan's army was composed of
> > Turkic
> > soldiers.
> >
> >  I also read that the Mongol army twice attempted to invade Japan.
>
> While it true that Turks made up much of the Mongol armies, particularly
> in the
> west, the armies invading Japan consisted, if memory serves, mostly of
> Mongols,
> Chinese and Koreans.
--at least two of whose languages are claimed to be related to Japanese (but
VERY distantly). And the third had already, by that time (when, 13th C???),
had considerable influence on Japanese.
>
> >  what if one of those invasion attempts had been succeessful to at least
> > a
> > small degree?
>
> That's very possible - it was a close thing, and the Japanese were helped
> by
> storms wrecking the Mongols' fleet (whence the word _kamikaze_ "divine
> wind").
>
> >  what would a Turco-Japanese creole or hybrid language be like?  whose
> > grammar do you think it would resemble more?  any quirks that might
> > appear,
> > based upon tendancies among the speakers of the parent populations?
> >
> >  thoughts?
>
> As said, a successful Mongol invasion of Japan might not have resulted in
> many
> Turks ending up there.
AFAIK, the fate of almost every successful Mongol invasion was--- complete
assimilation of the conqueror to the local culture/language (Mughal India,
China).  A few loanwords here and there, maybe, but no profound effect.

Their unsuccessful invasions of Europe and the Middle East had almost no
lasting effect (of course they were driven back and didn't hang around for
long). Compare also the "barbarian" Germanic invasions of the Roman Empire.
Germanic loans in Romance langs. are a very short list; structural
influences almost nil. (Possible influence on social structure?? IIRC (and I
may not) didn't feudalism arise out of Germanic institutions? Need to
re-read my Toynbee........)

For a conquering group's language/culture to be adopted by the defeated
group, seems to require that the conqueror's qualities are perceived somehow
as "superior" and desirable.

Or else perhaps, simply overwhelming numbers-- as the Turks in Anatolia. But
note again, the Ottoman-dominated peoples of the Balkans, Arab world and
Persia never adopted the Turkish language to any large degree.

Something that has always intrigued me about Anatolia-- what happened to all
the Greek- (and perhaps other-)speaking people who were there before the
Turks came? Did their languages have no effect on Turkish??Only the
Armenians seem to have survived.

Replies