Re: Tasratal: sketch: connectives (long)

--- Yoon Ha Lee <yl112@...> wrote:
> On Saturday, November 24, 2001, at 02:02 ,
> SuomenkieliMaa wrote:
> > --- Yoon Ha Lee <yl112@...> wrote:
> >> SuomenkieliMaa wrote:
> >>> --- Yoon Ha Lee <yl112@...> wrote:
> >>> Nice little feature, also like Korean _anmida_
> >> i
> >> You mean _amnida_?  :-)  (Er...I hope that's
> right.
> >
> > Yes, you're right... and I'm sorry for taking
> about
> > 2-3 weeks to finally reply...  :/
> >
> <G>  No hurry, and no problem.
This month will get even worse, and in Jan2002 I won't
be around for at least 2 weeks.

> >>> then?  Hmm, but nai somehow makes me think the
> >>> negative "I'm not Yoon" (probably because it is
> >> the
> >>> negative in Jpn!)...  BTW, is this always used
> for
> >> any
> >>>
> >> Yeah--I hadn't thought of the Japanese negative,
> but
> >> you're right.  (Then
> >> again, I know very little Japanese.)
> >
> > Then from where did you conjure up nai?  Or was it
> > just that you found it appealing?
> >
> It sounded pretty...<looking around guiltily>  I
> knew the -masen negative
> at the time I devised that, not the -nai.
>
> >> "Yoon-en" would be something like "I'm Yoon."
> >> "Yoon-nai" would be
> >> something like "There is a Yoon."  The main
> >
> > LOL!  There is a Yoon... that's adorable  :D
> > So, like in this case on the list here, we've got
> > several Matts... if I want to say that "I'm a Matt
> > from the list" then I'd use nai then?
> >
> Yes.  :-)  OC I haven't a word for "list" yet, but
> I'll worry about that later...
Well, now's a good time to invent a word for it!  :)

> >> difference between the two is
> >> that you could say "Yoon unicorn-en"--Yoon is a
> >> unicorn (but unicorns, at
> >> least to my knowledge, don't exist).  You
> couldn't
> >> say "Yoon unicorn-nai"
> >> because that makes an additional statement about
> >> existence that isn't
> >> there with the "en" copula.  Does that make any
> >> sense?
> >
> > Think so... en acts like a linking verb, whereas
> nai
> > has an additional underlying connotation that
> there is
> > an amount of (s.o.) existing.  Right?
> >
> Yes!  :-)
Wow, got one right.

> >> figured out registers of
> >> speech in Tasratal; for the moment they don't
> exist.
> >>  One meep at a time..
> >
> > Nor in Vyh!  The Enclave (ie, Vya:a:hn People)
> don't
> > mind, though, for the time being.  :)
> >
> <laugh>  Yeah...my confolk tend to be very, *very*
> forgiving.
Given the fact I am the only "awared ambassador" to
earth from Vaa:vy'yy, they have to make do with the
scarce time I can provide in advertising their
language and culture.  This past week, at my "real"
job in "real" life, I had to fit in my normal
end-of-month work with end-of-year work like appraisal
reviews for 10 London-based colleagues, etc.

> >>> can do somethiing like that in Vyh with my
> >> honorific
> >>> _hy'yy_ used in conjunction with negativizor
> _ox_.
> >>>
> >> Thank you.  :-)  What does _hy'yy_ by itself
> usually
> >> signify?
> >
> > Just an honorific indicator, like Jpn "go" or "o".
> > I'd guess Korean has something similar, though I
> > cannot say what it may be.  _hy'yy_ is derived
> from
> > _hyyva:_ (good), and in some cases it may turn
> itself
> > into _yy_ (again, like Jpn "go" or "o"
> honorifics).
> > Most of the time, it is to indicate honor/respect
> upon
> > the word it is attached to -- that could be a
> person
> > or an object even; it can, however, be used to
> > condescend or show sarcasm.
> >
> As in o-cha or o-genki or go-chisoosama?  (I'm
> especially iffy about the
> last example).  Hmm.  I can't think of a Korean
> analogue offhand.  Most of
> the honorific-ing seems to either go on in separate
> vocabulary items
> (chapsida vs. muksida for "to eat" depending on
> status) or get tacked onto
> the poor verb.  I could be wrong, though....
A note in passing, Laokou wrote me privately about
this "schmooze" between us, saying that _hyyva:_ is
definite steal from Finnish "hyva:".  True, I admit
it!  This is because I find that word to be the
nicest-sounding word I've ever heard, but I like it
even better with a prolonged y (go figure, is this
becoming my trademark?).  Everything is still so
sketchy in regard to my conculture, that this is why I
have not dared to list the background to Vyh here...
yet.

About Korean, that is hard for me to believe.  I
always thought Korean and Jpn were like sisters - not
the exact same, but remarkably similar.  Korean only
shows honorified form via the verb stem?!  No
honorific indicators to nouns?!

Well then, I guess Jpn is really harder (in this
aspect) because they are extremely honorific-happy.
It's like if you want to say "please contact me" in a
business email to the recipient of another company,
you might write: "go-renraku kudasaimasu you (ni)
onegai-moushiagemasu" where go- shows respect to the
recipient, verbal kudasai already shows a humbling of
yourself but even more so with that polite verbal
ending -masu, you (ni) literally is "in the way/manner
of" ie, the same kanji as for "sama" as in
"Masako-sama", then you got the common onegai -- a
humblized form of negau (request), plus the extremely
humble form moushi (from verbal _iu_, "I say") and
honorific -agemasu verbal.  I, in my demented head,
look at it as this: "I most humbly present to you my
verbalized request such that I might receive kind
correspondence"... ie, lacking the actual indication
of "you".

Obviously, my system of honorifics in Vyh is nowhere
near as developed as in Jpn.  I definitely like the
idea of expressing anything from respect to sarcasm to
even the indication of "you" by these nifty honorific
indicators; and Vyh most definitely will be embedded
with them, in its own way, in time.

> >> Thanks!  Your comments are really helpful, too;
> they
> >> force me to clarify
> >> what the heck is going on with the language.  :-)
> >> Doomo arigatoo!
> >
> > Well, unfortunately, I could only go as far as
> above.
> > Not much of a true linguist yet!
> Dou-itashimashite
> > (cho-maneyo).
>
> :-)  'Sokay, I'm not a true linguist either.  Let us
> bootstrap from each
> other's shoulders...<G>
Nice way to put it, I suppose.  Sure, whatever tid-bit
of knowledge I might hold or come across, I'll try to
share.

BTW, you're presenting Tasratal (this email) opened my
eyes.  I never thought about such having so many
connotations in such ways that you offer.  Sure,
everyone else on the list is probably laughing saying
that they do it all the time, but I guess I never
thought about it...

Matt33


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