Re: Tasratal: sketch: connectives (long)

On Saturday, December 1, 2001, at 01:28 , SuomenkieliMaa wrote:

> --- Yoon Ha Lee <yl112@...> wrote:
>> On Saturday, November 24, 2001, at 02:02 ,
>> SuomenkieliMaa wrote:
>>> --- Yoon Ha Lee <yl112@...> wrote:
>>>> SuomenkieliMaa wrote:
>>>>> --- Yoon Ha Lee <yl112@...> wrote:
>>>>
> Given the fact I am the only "awared ambassador" to
> earth from Vaa:vy'yy, they have to make do with the
> scarce time I can provide in advertising their
> language and culture.  This past week, at my "real"
> job in "real" life, I had to fit in my normal
> end-of-month work with end-of-year work like appraisal
> reviews for 10 London-based colleagues, etc.
>
<laugh>  You should demand better pay.  J/k.  ^_^  I'm sure they're
grateful for the time you *are* able to spare!

>>> Just an honorific indicator, like Jpn "go" or "o".
>>> I'd guess Korean has something similar, though I
>>> cannot say what it may be.  _hy'yy_ is derived
>> from
>>> _hyyva:_ (good), and in some cases it may turn
>>
>> As in o-cha or o-genki or go-chisoosama?  (I'm
>> especially iffy about the
>> last example).  Hmm.  I can't think of a Korean
>> analogue offhand.  Most of
>> the honorific-ing seems to either go on in separate
>> vocabulary items
>> (chapsida vs. muksida for "to eat" depending on
>> status) or get tacked onto
>> the poor verb.  I could be wrong, though....
>
> A note in passing, Laokou wrote me privately about
> this "schmooze" between us, saying that _hyyva:_ is
> definite steal from Finnish "hyva:".  True, I admit
> it!  This is because I find that word to be the
> nicest-sounding word I've ever heard, but I like it
> even better with a prolonged y (go figure, is this
> becoming my trademark?).  Everything is still so
> sketchy in regard to my conculture, that this is why I
> have not dared to list the background to Vyh here...
> yet.
>
<laugh>  Hey, at least you *have* a trademark.  I think my only trademarks
are general disorganization, a fondness so far for 3's, and dull-as-dust
phonologies (I am loath to include anything I can't yet pronounce reliably)
.

I remember a while back I posted a sketch for a *still*-unnamed conlang,
which was sketchy to the point where it didn't even have a phonology or
words, it was just a "concept test."  (And usually I want to have a
phonology before I post anything, since I want to know what the darn thing
*sounds* like.)

> About Korean, that is hard for me to believe.  I
> always thought Korean and Jpn were like sisters - not
> the exact same, but remarkably similar.  Korean only
> shows honorified form via the verb stem?!  No
> honorific indicators to nouns?!
>
None that *I* know of offhand, and you should know that in terms of formal
features, *especially* in the honorifics area, I'm a bloody lousy
informant.  The Korean I speak best (to, say, my sister and friends) is
informal and colloquial to the point of aggression.  <sheepish look>

Actually...<checking _Integrated Korean_>
Yeah...the nouns they list in Appendix 2 have *separate* plain and
honorific forms that don't look at all related to each other.  "Chip"
(house, plain) vs. "daek" (house, honorific); "bap" (meal, plain) vs.
"chincha" (meal, honorific).  Unfortunately, since the Korean I speak *is*
  with my family, it's inevitably the plain forms.  I don't however see an
equivalent to Japanese o- or go-.

The only promising thing I'm getting out of this appendix (though OC there
are probably tons of things *not* covered by the appendix) are alternate
forms of the subject, topic and goal particles, again with a plain-
vs.-honorific split, and the only one that looks related is the topic: "(n)
eun" (plain) vs. "ggeseoneun" (honorific).

> Well then, I guess Jpn is really harder (in this
> aspect) because they are extremely honorific-happy.
> [snip]
My understanding has generally been that as bad as Korean gets, Japanese
gets worse.  <G>  But I really don't know enough Korean or Japanese to
fully stand behind that assertion, since what I've picked up of both has
been in relatively informal situations.  (If I had ever done business in
Korea I'm sure I'd be telling a different story.)

> BTW, you're presenting Tasratal (this email) opened my
> eyes.  I never thought about such having so many
> connotations in such ways that you offer.  Sure,
> everyone else on the list is probably laughing saying
> that they do it all the time, but I guess I never
> thought about it...
:-)  I am glad to have been an eye-opener for one person on this list.
And God knows how many linguistic features I've learned from people on
this list (in discussing their conlangs, others' conlangs, or natlangs in
general) that I never even conceived of existing.  Ergative case systems
and trigger-marking and all sorts of nifty features.  <G>  Someday I *will*
  attempt an ergative conlang, as I said to Jesse...

Yoon Ha Lee [requiescat@cityofvelis.com]
http://pegasus.cityofveils.com

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